[nagdu] Intelligent disobedience

[Julie J.]

I think intelligent disobedience is more closely related to confidence 
level than anything else.  A dog basically needs to have the emotional 
ability to say no without crumbling.

Monty is what I'd call very high on the obedience chart.  He very much 
wants to please his people and will go above and beyond to accomplish 
this.  He is also decently high on the confidence scale.  If I want to 
do something dumb he will stick to his decision even after repeated 
attempts to get him to do things my way.  It doesn't seem to bother him 
too much as long as I don't correct or raise my voice.  So I've learned 
when we are standing on the corner and he is refusing to go some 
particular way I need to offer some different options until we can agree 
on one.

Belle is not a very obedient dog and is much lower in confidence.  With 
her I got one chance to figure it out.  If she stopped and I didn't take 
enough time to figure out what was going on and told her to continue, 
she would.  sometimes that was not so great for me.  I don't know that 
she's a good example though.  She was never really cut out to be a guide 
dog.

Tia, my first dog from way back when, was obedient when it suited her, 
but was very confident.  She very much wanted to do things her way all 
the time.  If I suggested some dumb thing she'd wait ever so patiently 
until I saw things her way.  She never gave in to my stupidity.

It's an interesting discussion.  Thanks for bringing it up.
Julie

On 1/30/2013 2:16 PM, Tami Jarvis wrote:
> Tracy,
>
> That's something I've wondered about off and on about guide dogs in 
> general. They're all trained in intelligent disobedience... But how 
> stubborn is the average guide dog about applying that training?
>
> Mitzi is stubborn and has developed a number of ways of letting me 
> know -- correction: trying to let me know -- that I am being a 
> complete dumb head and would get myself hurt or done in if she didn't 
> go to extraordinary lengths to protect me from myself. /lol/ She is 
> also very good at saying, "I told you so," once I figure it out.
>
> So now I'm really spoiled, of course. But as Mitzi moves toward the 
> 7-year mark, I do find myself wondering about that trait of hers. I 
> think the major reason I want to do some basic guide dog training with 
> DD's pup Zay is because she is naturally a more obedient type of dog, 
> in the classical concept of obedience. Very eager to please, etc., 
> etc. So I want to find out, using very safe places, if she can take 
> the basic skills and develop some general responsibility, then bump it 
> up to the next level and refuse to let me walk into the street or 
> something. Hm...
>
> My secret fear for the future is that I will inadvertently end up with 
> a guide dog that does what I tell it to, just because I tell it to... 
> Probably because of all the people who take it upon themselves to 
> question Mitzi's fitness (or even ask smart questions in a sensible 
> way) as a guide, since they thought guide dogs are supposed to be 
> totally obedient. /lol/ I used to get really annoyed by that sort of 
> thing, but now I just stare at whoever might bring it up these days in 
> horror, then burst out laughing. OMG! I would be soooo doomed! /lol/
>
> Tami
>
> On 01/30/2013 10:02 AM, Tracy Carcione wrote:
>> Sometimes I get mixed up about exactly where I am, and tell Ben to do
>> something dumb, like turn to cross the street before we get to the
>> crosswalk.  He says No, and I insist, and he insists back, and, after 2
>> or 3 times, I finally get it through my fat head that this time he is
>> right and I am wrong, and I tell him how great he is.
>> I know all guide dogs do intelligent disobedience, but do they all
>> insist when their silly user persists in wrong-headedness?  Or is this a
>> special feature I need to remember to mention, when it comes time for
>> New Dog? Actually, I did just tell Seeing Eye to put it in my record
>> that I need a dog who insists, but I wonder if it really goes without
>> saying.  But then, some things I think go without saying apparently 
>> don't.
>> So, do all guide dogs insist in disobedience, even in small things like
>> the right place to cross the street?
>> Tracy
>>
>>
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