[nagdu] Intelligent disobedience

Thu Jan 31 13:19:28 UTC 2013

Hi,

Last week we encountered such a situation. WE had gotten off the traing and
came down the steps to ground level. As we got to the tunnel that goes under
the tracks, I thought it would be a good idea to have Hazel relieve herself
on a patch of grass to the right of the tunnel entrance. (This also happens
to be near a trash can.) After she had finished we went through the tunnel.
This brings you onto a parking lot. So we turned to walk along the side of
the stations' building. I know if we get to the second door, we are lined up
to a sidewalk which will take me to the street I need to cross to get home.
We started walking along the building. All of a sudden Hazel started pulling
to the curb. Since this is what she does when she wants to relieve herself,
I didn't think she needed to do it again although she sometimes does.
Anyway, I kept encouraging her to go on. Finally, she pressed herself flat
against the building and slowly moving forward. As I followed her, my foot
touched a piece of luggage laying on the ground. There were at least three
of such items. (Where the owner of this luggage was I don't know.) I praised
her and, as I frequently do,  apologized by saying, "I'm sorry! If I could
have seen that luggage, I wouldn't need you."

Toni

P.S. We also had three traffic checks during that outing, each time a driver
making a turn ignoring the law to yield to a pedestrian. As an aside, when
my daughter was an infant and before getting a dog guide I was talking to
one of my readers about travelling. He allowed that drivers must always stop
whenthey see me with my cane and daughter snuggled against my chest. I told
him to think again. Over the past thirty some years I think drivers have
gotten ruder and less attentive.
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie McGinnity
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 11:38 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Intelligent disobedience

Brie is very very stubbern.  If she believe it is not safe for whatever
reason, she will not move.  Sometimes this makes me crazy because she will
stop us, for instance, in the middle of a room when I am trying to cross it.
I'll tell her forward, and she will nto move.
Then someone will move the chair or whatever was in my way.  Usually, it
turns out that there was a small path that she could have used, but she was
just waiting for that nice person to clear it for her.  She also will stop
me a foot or so before the door so  that someone else can open it for us.  I
have to be very firm with her when I want something, especially if we are
disagreeing about it.  I love that she is a star at inteligent disobedience,
but I think it gets to her head and makes her think she can disobey me other
times.

On 1/30/13, Larry D. Keeler <lkeeler at comcast.net> wrote:
> Yah, I know that poodle smirk!  Holly uses it on occassion.  Sh4e also 
> blocks me with her body or just stops!  When she stops, there is no 
> way you're going anywhere! But, when I release the harness and check 
> out what;s
>
> ahead, she will surrender responsibility!  This is really useful in 
> the winter.  She thinks all snow drifts are obstacles!  She hasn't 
> learned we can go through or over them!  So sometimes I have to take
control!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tami Jarvis" <tami at poodlemutt.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 3:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Intelligent disobedience
>
>
>> Tracy,
>>
>> That's something I've wondered about off and on about guide dogs in 
>> general. They're all trained in intelligent disobedience... But how 
>> stubborn is the average guide dog about applying that training?
>>
>> Mitzi is stubborn and has developed a number of ways of letting me 
>> know --
>>
>> correction: trying to let me know -- that I am being a complete dumb 
>> head
>>
>> and would get myself hurt or done in if she didn't go to 
>> extraordinary lengths to protect me from myself. /lol/ She is also 
>> very good at saying,
>>
>> "I told you so," once I figure it out.
>>
>> So now I'm really spoiled, of course. But as Mitzi moves toward the 
>> 7-year
>>
>> mark, I do find myself wondering about that trait of hers. I think 
>> the major reason I want to do some basic guide dog training with DD's 
>> pup Zay
>>
>> is because she is naturally a more obedient type of dog, in the 
>> classical
>>
>> concept of obedience. Very eager to please, etc., etc. So I want to 
>> find out, using very safe places, if she can take the basic skills 
>> and develop
>>
>> some general responsibility, then bump it up to the next level and 
>> refuse
>>
>> to let me walk into the street or something. Hm...
>>
>> My secret fear for the future is that I will inadvertently end up 
>> with a guide dog that does what I tell it to, just because I tell it
to...
>> Probably because of all the people who take it upon themselves to 
>> question
>>
>> Mitzi's fitness (or even ask smart questions in a sensible way) as a 
>> guide, since they thought guide dogs are supposed to be totally obedient.
>>
>> /lol/ I used to get really annoyed by that sort of thing, but now I 
>> just stare at whoever might bring it up these days in horror, then 
>> burst out laughing. OMG! I would be soooo doomed! /lol/
>>
>> Tami
>>
>> On 01/30/2013 10:02 AM, Tracy Carcione wrote:
>>> Sometimes I get mixed up about exactly where I am, and tell Ben to 
>>> do something dumb, like turn to cross the street before we get to 
>>> the crosswalk.  He says No, and I insist, and he insists back, and, 
>>> after 2 or 3 times, I finally get it through my fat head that this 
>>> time he is right and I am wrong, and I tell him how great he is.
>>> I know all guide dogs do intelligent disobedience, but do they all 
>>> insist when their silly user persists in wrong-headedness?  Or is 
>>> this a special feature I need to remember to mention, when it comes 
>>> time for New Dog? Actually, I did just tell Seeing Eye to put it in 
>>> my record that I need a dog who insists, but I wonder if it really 
>>> goes without saying.  But then, some things I think go without 
>>> saying apparently don't.
>>> So, do all guide dogs insist in disobedience, even in small things 
>>> like the right place to cross the street?
>>> Tracy
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nagdu mailing list
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>> for
>>> nagdu:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/tami%40poodlemutt
>>> .com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nagdu:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/lkeeler%40comcast.
>> net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.c
> om
>

--
Julie McG
National Association of Guide dog Users board member,  National Federation
of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of
Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For
God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who
believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life."
John 3:16

_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blind_treasurer%40verizon
.net