[nagdu] airline question

Fri Jul 5 18:06:54 UTC 2013

Buddy and Ann,

Yeah, I was thinking of the employment disparity. So then for us 
unemployed types, the free extra space and all sounds very attractive If 
I could afford to pay for the extra space -- or for a first class 
ticket! -- I would rather! So that makes it a knotty problem, as you say.

I wonder how general social attitudes in countries like Canada or other 
more "socialist" countries then affect opportunities for the people who 
do need and receive what we would call benefits to enable them to 
compete without bearing extra burden. I did not say that very well, but 
I guess I'm not sure what I'm stretching towards. I think that currently 
in our culture here, we're all worried about who has what or who doesn't 
as it compares to someone else. So then waht Ann says about the 
insidious hidden cost of what would be seen as an extra benefit holds 
true. But it is also true that we have this huge disparity in employment 
so there are many who can't afford to pay for extra space if they do 
need it... Catch 22.

There are some who already think that a guide dog is some sort of 
special benefit to begin with, and plus we "get to" take them into 
grocery stores Um...While those are the social attitudes we deal with, 
they will affect our other oppportunities, so we do need to stick with 
the fight by constantly demonstrating how danged independent we are and 
how we don't need special treatment. I'm in a frustrating period with my 
own social attitude towards all that, but there it is. /smile/

Tami

On 07/04/2013 04:29 AM, Buddy Brannan wrote:
> I agree completely with Ann on this one. Absolutely everything hs a cost, and the cost of “free”, or of “special treatment” or “perks” can be the most insidious of all, because it’s the cost that is often the most hidden from view. In the case of the “guide/attendant flies free” scenario, that cost isn’t immediate, but rather long-term and pervasive, and we all pay it whether we want to or not, just as Ann says below. The fundamental question is this: do we want equality, or do we want to be special? Because we can’t be both.
>
> Now I know someone’s going to ask, “Really? How can you take that position when we’ve fought for and received things like higher SSDI payment, tax exemptions, and things like that?” And it’s a legitimate question. Short answer? I’d be more than happy to give those things up just as soon as our unemployment rate is at least somewhere in line with that of the general public. You’ll often hear things about the pay disparity between men and women, unemployment rates of racial minorities, and how terrible such disparities are, yet *our8 unemployment rate is so strikingly out of proportion to any of those that I expect a lot of folks have trouble getting their heads around it. Some probably think that the only possible reasons for such a high number, if true, are either that we can’t work competitively or just are too lazy to do so, and unfortunately, I also expect that there’s a certain amount of truth in both assertions, though I also maintain that in the main, neither one of those thin
gs is our fault, collectively. It’s a chicken and egg thing. I don’t know how many people have just given up on work after being beaten down so many time they can’t get up again. I also don’t know how many of us aren’t getting work because of poor training in even basic social, grooming,and  daily living tasks which, no matter how competent we might be, not having such skills won’t get us in the door. No idea. So, yes, it’s a knotty and complicated problem, but until it’s solved, we can’t hope for equality in that arena, and so we must make do. So I submit that employment is a special case.
>
> Which, of course, diverges quite a bit from the original question, but it’s bound to come up whenever someone says anything about not wanting special treatment. So, yeah, there’s that.
> --
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
>
>
>
> On Jul 4, 2013, at 7:14 AM, Ann Edie <annedie at nycap.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi, Gary,
>>
>> I understand that you in Canada get the extra seat for no extra charge.  But
>> in this country, we have fought to be treated like any other passenger,
>> keeping our dogs under the seat in front of us and sitting wherever we want
>> to on the plane (except emergency exit rows.)  The last time I looked at the
>> regulations that accompany our Air Carrier Access Act, they said that if the
>> service animal takes up more than the space in front of the passenger's seat
>> and encroaches into the space in front of another seat, that one of the
>> options for the airline is that the passenger can be charged for another
>> seat.  (Just as, I believe, if a passenger is too large to fit into a single
>> seat and encroaches on the seat space of another passenger, the large
>> passenger can be charged for another seat.)
>>
>> I don't know of any instances where this rule has actually been put into
>> effect.  Usually they can arrange to have the person with the large service
>> animal sit next to an empty seat or next to a person who doesn't mind
>> sharing his/her foot space with a dog.  But if the plane is full and every
>> seat has been sold and no one wants to share their space, then the airline
>> can ask the passenger who takes up more than his/her allotted space, or
>> whose dog takes up more than the space in front of the passenger, to take a
>> later flight or pay for the extra space.  Usually they just try to force us
>> to sit in the bulkhead row where they believe there is more space for the
>> dog to spread out.  And we have to fight for the right to make our own
>> decision about whether we want to accept this accommodation or whether we
>> want to put the dog under the seat in front of us.
>>
>> We certainly have flights in the U.S. that last longer than 4 hours.  We
>> have again fought to be permitted to take our guides on even longer flights,
>> such as to Europe or Australia, and we wouldn't want to feed into any
>> airline attempts to decide for us how long a flight is okay for a guide dog
>> or how we will manage our own travel with our service animals.
>>
>> Actually, I don't think most of us blind people in the U.S. would want a
>> sighted guide to ride free on airplanes.  We fight long and hard to be seen
>> as fully competent adults with all the rights  and responsibilities of
>> citizens.  If we were to accept free travel for our companions (who may
>> coincidentally be serving as sighted guides,) this would just reinforce the
>> stereotype that blind people cannot travel independently and need keepers.
>> And it seems to me that this provision of a free seat for sighted guides
>> would be much too easily abused.  For example, if I am traveling with my
>> sighted husband, what's to stop me from saying that he is acting as my
>> sighted guide and therefore should be given free passage, even though he
>> would have been traveling with me regardless of whether I was blind or not?
>> And if I am traveling with my business colleague, again what is to stop us
>> from asserting that that person is my guide, rather than simply an
>> acquaintance who is going to the same destination?
>>
>> Generally I applaud our neighbor to the north's enlightened policies on
>> social issues.  But in this case, I think giving blind persons special
>> privileges to have another person travel with them for free sends the wrong
>> message about the ability of blind people to travel and live independently
>> and to support themselves financially.  Now if a person who is disabled
>> actually does need an attendant to travel, and the person who is acting as
>> the attendant would not be traveling apart from his/her function as the
>> disabled person's attendant, then it might be reasonable to provide the
>> attendant's seat for free.  But I wonder how abuse of this provision could
>> be prevented--one would probably need doctor's documentation of the need for
>> the attendant, and maybe also proof that the attendant is a paid personal
>> care attendant, rather than merely a family member or traveling
>> companion--and we generally object to provisions that require us to provide
>> additional documentation of our disability and portray us as ill or
>> incompetent.  I would not want this provision to apply to blind people
>> because I don't agree that blind people need attendants, and I think it
>> would send a harmful and erroneous message about blind people and would make
>> it harder for us to get jobs, for example, and to be permitted to take care
>> of our own children, etc.
>>
>> By the way, I do know of instances where persons who are blind and use
>> miniature horse guides have been charged for an extra seat on an airplane
>> because the miniature horse guide took up more than the space in front of
>> the passenger's seat.  While I would find it difficult to afford the cost of
>> an extra seat, and this might affect my choice as to whether to fly
>> accompanied by my miniature horse guide, I think it is generally reasonable,
>> as long as it applies equally to all types of service animals, as well as
>> passengers traveling with attendants, to passengers who themselves take up
>> more than one seat of space, or to passengers who might need special
>> equipment at their seats that takes up more than one seat of space in order
>> to travel.  Generally I have found that passengers are falling all over
>> themselves to vie for the privilege of sitting next to the person with the
>> guide horse, so there is no real need to pay for the extra seat.
>>
>> It is always interesting to hear about the different accommodations provided
>> in other countries and to speculate on what these different accommodations
>> say about us as people who happen to be blind
>>
>> Best,
>> Ann
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of GARY STEEVES
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 3:10 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] airline question
>>
>> Hi Ann:
>>
>> No, I think you misunderstood me. The carriers are mandated to provide the
>> seat space for no charge in Canada which is an awesome rule that has been
>> put into place.
>>
>> I know there are many of you on the list that might say my dog as no
>> problems fitting under the seat in front of me, which may be the case.
>> However, most of the flights I take are 4 to 5 hours in length and I think
>> that would be cruel to make Bogart stay laying in that confined space.
>> Personally I think it is a rule I'd be advocating for if I lived in the
>> states. It is perhaps part of the Canada Transportation Agencies "One person
>> one fare" policy. This refers to if you require an attendant to travel with
>> you that you don't have to pay for the attendant's ticket. One of our major
>> airlines looks at as a sighted guide in this light where as the other major
>> carrier does not see a sighted guide as an"attendant".
>>
>> Gary
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Ann Edie <annedie at nycap.rr.com>
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thu, 27 Jun 2013 17:23:43 -0600 (MDT)
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] airline question
>>
>> Gary, here they would charge us for the extra seat.  So I hope your wish for
>> that extra space being mandated doesn't come true here.
>>
>> Best,
>> Ann
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of GARY STEEVES
>> Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2013 4:07 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] airline question
>>
>> Hi Dar:
>>
>> This was most likely the travel agent wanting to be sure they had answers to
>> any questions they could be asked. If it was me, I would djust politely ask
>> why they are interested in this information.
>>
>> In Canada, the great socialist nation to the norht, <big smile> we have a
>> rule through the Canadian Transportation Agency that demands any service dog
>> over 50 lbs must be provided with a seat space. This means the seat  next to
>> me will be free leaving room for Bogart and my feet. Poodles don't slide
>> themselves as easily into small spaces as some labs do. :) This is for
>> planes, trains, buses, boats or space shutttles. Even when I took a direct
>> Air Canada flight to London UK last year this policy was in play. I keep
>> mentioning it so someday, when Bogart and I fly to the states, this policy
>> will exist there too. :)
>>
>> Enjoy your flight.
>>
>> Gary
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Jessica Diaz PC <jldiaz421 at gmail.com>
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 08:17:28 -0600 (MDT)
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] airline question
>>
>> Hello
>> I know I will get mixed reviews on what I am going to say but I learned over
>> time just not to mention the dog when traveling anywhere in the US. When I
>> fly and issues arise, I handle them when they come up. Most of the time when
>> they see my dog and how calm he is, I rarely except when flying jet blue
>> which is why I don't anymore have any problems.
>> Jessica Diaz
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of d m Gina
>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 12:28 PM
>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: [nagdu] airline question
>>
>> Hello,
>> yesterday while making the tickets for the convention, one of the questions
>> after I shared I have a guide dog.
>> Was, how much does the dog weigh, and what kind of dog is it.
>> We are flying united.
>> Going and coming.
>> Do the schools get asked the same questions for each dog that goes home with
>> us after training?
>> Is this to make sure that the plane can handle all of the weight for the
>> plane, asking anyone who has a dog?
>> I felt frustrated, did answer all questions.
>> We were told if there were any more questions they would call back.
>> We used an agency here in town.
>> Thanks again,
>>
>> --
>> --Dar
>> Skype: dmgina23
>>   FB: dmgina
>> www.twitter.com/dmgina
>> every saint has a past
>> every sinner has a future
>>
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