[nagdu] "Consumer"
Cindy Ray
cindyray at gmail.com
Sat Jul 13 12:27:25 UTC 2013
I am neither Lyn or Tracy, but I like it myself.
Cindy Lou
On Jul 13, 2013, at 6:22 AM, "National Association of Guide Dog Users" <blind411 at verizon.net> wrote:
> Lyn & Tracy,
> At least for the Bill of Rights, I think we can change the title to
> Guide Dog Users Bill of Rights. How does that set with you?
>
> Marion
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Star Gazer
> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 4:48 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] "Consumer"
>
> I agree with Tracey, I have always thought of the NFB as a civil rights
> organization. Wasn't it modeled after NAACP?
> That being said, I struggle with the consumer language. Maybe if "consumer
> of guide dog services" was used, I'd feel better.
> I like customer, I do get Tracey's visual with a knife and fork when I
> encounter the "consumer" label.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione
> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 2:42 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: [nagdu] "Consumer"
>
> Hi Marion.
> The NFB may call itself a consumer organization, but I usually call it a
> civil rights organization. I do not care for being called a "consumer" in
> any context. Somehow, I have been demoted from respected citizen, or even
> valued customer, to a mere consumer, and I don't like it. And, when it
> comes to being called a "guide dog consumer", I can't help picturing myself
> with a knife and fork, sitting down to a plate of dog. Yuk!
> I prefer customer, client, patron, student, graduate, alumna--any of those
> are preferrable to "consumer" in my book.
> I realize this may go against what has become common usage, but, as I said,
> I don't like the common usage, and am doing what I can to buck the trend.
> Tracy
>
>> Tracy,
>> I would be open to hearing more about your feelings on the term
>> "consumer". I have heard people express their views in terms of
>> consuming
>> (eating) guide dogs; however, that is a limited view of the term. The
>> NFB refers to itself as a consumer organization in the sense of the
>> economic definition as "a person or organization that uses a commodity
>> or
> service".
>> From an economics point of view, consumerism is the most powerful
>> method of effecting change and collective consumerism exponentially
>> increases that power.
>> During our annual meeting on July 3, we heard several training
>> programs assert that the diversity of policies and practices between
>> thos available offered consumers choice. Of course, for such choice to
>> be effectively enacted upon, more information needs to be available.
>> For instance, one training program asserts they transfer ownership
>> after six months; however, their contract also reserves the right to
>> repossess the dog at any time and for any reason. I'm not sure about
>> anyone else, but I do not consider something that someone else has the
>> right to take away from me without just cause as true ownership. When
>> publicly asked about this provision during the NAGDU meeting, we got
>> no response. So much for informed choice! And what about the practice
>> of surprise visits? I have been advised this same training program
>> regularly calls consumers to advise them they are around the corner
>> and want to visit them within five minutes! This training program may
>> feel as if I am picking on them; however, playing the victim is not
>> very becoming when they treat blind consumers in such a manner! Again,
>> more on this in future articles.
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion Gwizdala
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy
>> Carcione
>> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 9:36 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Quality of Training was pilot dogs traffic checks
>>
>> Hi Marion.
>> I'm both a donor and a "consumer". (Boy, do I hate that term
>> "consumer"!) I know that my dog enhances my life considerably. I
>> think there's a fine line between expressing that truth, and the "hero
>> dogs leading me out of my lonely darkness", sort of thing. It's easy
>> for publicity/fundraising to stray over that line, sometimes. It
>> annoys me a lot when it does, but I can see how it could be tricky. I
>> think TSE usually does a pretty good job, by letting people talk about
>> what the dog does for them, but it's not perfect.
>> I don't think fundraising would be very effective that said something
>> like "I can use my dog or my cane to get where I want to go, but my
>> dog is helpful is some situations." I wonder what you think it should
>> say? I know drippy goo when I hear it, but it can't be too blase,
>> either. I look forward to your articles.
>> Tracy
>>
>>> Dear All,
>>> I believe that, for the most part, all the training programs do a
>>> good job as it pertains to the quality of training. From my personal
>>> point of view, the differences I observe are with the philosophies of
>>> the programs and the resulting manner in which consumers are viewed
>>> and treated. The purpose of the Guide Dog Consumers' Bill of Rights
>>> is to outline certain standards the National Association of Guide Dog
>>> Users and the National Federation of the Blind believe to be
>>> dignified, respectful treatment of blind consumers. It gives blind
>>> consumers considering a training program elements to consider when
>>> evaluating a training program. Whether a training program agrees with
>>> the Bill of Rights or not matters less to me than affording consumers
>>> a tool to measure how a training program measures up.
>>> In a market driven economy, it is best for those who provide goods
>>> and/or services to listen to their consumers and meet their needs. As
>>> the collective voice of blind consumers, we believe it is our
>>> responsibility to inform the public about what we believe is a good
>>> service by establishing reasonable standards for measuring what
>>> quality training involves. The Bill of Rights is our operational
>>> definition of this abstract, subjective term.
>>> As consumers, it is our right to ask training programs how they
>>> measure up and our responsibility to demand they modify their
>>> policies, practices, and procedures to align themselves with what we
>>> believe is dignified treatment.
>>> It is my goal over the next year to publish several articles in the
>>> Braille Monitor and on our Harness Up! Blog on this topic. As we
>>> shift the paradigm of the blind from beneficiaries to consumers of
>>> guide dog training programs, those who raise millions of dollars from
>>> the public on our behalf will either need to realign their
>>> philosophies or accept the consequences of not doing so.
>>> All guide dog training programs have four stakeholders: Consumers,
>>> volunteers, donors, and employees. Some programs seem to consider the
>>> most important stakeholder to be the donor. Some of these programs
>>> solicit donations by telling donors how important their work is and,
>>> in so many words, how the plight of the blind is made better by
>>> their services. Such an approach may serve the training program
>>> employing this tactic by making the public feel sorry for us and give
>>> money to improve our plight, but what does it do to us as blind
>>> people? How does it impact our everyday lives?
>>> Is
>>> it partly responsible for the misconceptions we face from the public
>>> many of us on this list have complained about? Is it partly
>>> responsible for our high unemployment rate? Do the ways in which we
>>> are portrayed by the so-called experts in the field of blindness have
>>> an impact on our lives? These are the sorts of questions I hope to
>>> address in the future in the effort to continue shifting the paradigm.
>>> Your comments are respectfully requested!
>>>
>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>
>>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
>>> National Federation of the Blind
>>> (813) 626-2789 (Office)
>>> 888-NAGDU411 (Hotline
>>> President at nagdu.org
>>> www.nagdu.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Danielle
>>> Antoine
>>> Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 1:03 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update: Training
>>> Program sat NAGDU Meeting
>>>
>>> But, could it be that they don't know or can't tell the difference
>>> because they have never had any other experience? Are there any other
>>> grads who have gone to Pilot after another program on hear? I will
>>> say that I've been on a few non-school specific lists and as stated
>>> previously they all seem happy with there training. this is very
>>> interesting and I don't really have much info nor have I seen any
>>> working teams from there so I'd like to hear more about Pilot Dogs.
>>> that's what I've always heard though that they didn't do planned
>>> traffic checks. Kind of worrisome!
>>>
>>> Danielle
>>>
>>> On 7/10/13, rhonda cruz <rhondaprincess at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> hello may, keeps me safe every time we travel together, she has
>>>> done many traffic checks, and we work hard to.
>>>> i feel pilot did a good job at mamatching us.
>>>>
>>>> On Jul 8, 2013, at 12:58 PM, Howard J. Levine wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I agree if a xchool is going to cut back on traffic checks what
>>>>> else are they cutting back on. You want to know how your guide dog
>>>>> is going ot react to problem and keep you safe.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of National
>>>>> Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 3:49 PM
>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update: Training
>>>>> Program sat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>>
>>>>> Rebecca.
>>>>> This may be an issue of not knowing rather than not caring. I
>>>>> believe traffic checks are an important part of guide dog work and,
>>>>> to the best of my knowledge, Pilot is the only guide dog training
>>>>> program that does not include them in their training! If Pilot
>>>>> consumers knew how important they were and that everyone else gets
>>>>> what they do not, perhaps they would speak up. Then again, they may
>>>>> be met with the same sort of irrational excuses other training
>>>>> programs offer us and we are expected to accept without question!
>>>>> For instance, Pilot may assert that traffic checks are unnecessary
>>>>> and their consumers are expected to accept this without question.
>>>>> If they are not important, why does every other program put such a
>>>>> major emphasis on them?
>>>>>
>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>> Marion
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Star
>>>>> Gazer
>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 12:03 PM
>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update: Training
>>>>> Program sat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve,
>>>>> The Pilot grads don't seem to mind this though. So why would they
>>>>> speak up?
>>>>> To them, it isn't a problem. To me, it's a deal breaker.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steven
>>>>> Johnson
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 7:07 PM
>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update: Training
>>>>> Program sat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>>
>>>>> Deanna, you make an excellent point. Having a controlled traffic
>>>>> check can help the student get prepared for what is inevitable.
>>>>> Whether it is a gas powered car, quiet car, bicycle, skateboard; we
>>>>> can begin to learn and feel how our dogs react to those situations.
>>>>> Sometimes they are slight, and sometimes, very apparent checks as
>>>>> we all know. What would be ideal is for the Pilot grads to step up
>>>>> and simply make this request. The more they hear from, the more
>>>>> likely they might listen, and a potential change could be made.
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Deanna
>>>>> Lewis
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 10:43 AM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update: Training
>>>>> Programsat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>>
>>>>> I am sorry, but I would rather have a trained professional driving
>>>>> a car and testing my dog and I, than I would to have a random
>>>>> stranger who is not paying attention come close to, or actually
>>>>> hitting
> us.
>>>>> Drivers nowadays are so careless and they are always on their cell
>>>>> phones, texting, putting on makeup, and so forth. They just do not
>>>>> pay attention to pedestrians.
>>>>> I strongly believe that planned traffic checks are an essential
>>>>> part of guide dog training.
>>>>> Deanna and Pascal
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darla
>>>>> Rogers
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 11:30 AM
>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update: Training
>>>>> Programsat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Chantel,
>>>>>
>>>>> That is totally ridiculous; I wouldn't want a dog who freaked out
>>>>> with artificial traffic checks.
>>>>> Darla & Handsome Huck
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chantel
>>>>> Cuddemi
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2013 11:39 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update: Training
>>>>> Programsat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>>
>>>>> Guys,
>>>>>
>>>>> Students and dogs were freaked out by the artificial traffic checks
>>>>> set up by Pilot. I wasn't aware that the dogs go through artificial
>>>>> traffic checks before we got them.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 7/2/13, Larry D. Keeler <lkeeler at comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>>> That I didn't know! I just know that between Holly and I we don't
>>>>>> have any probblems! She'll stop whebn cars are coming and go
>>>>>> around those that park in the middle of the street.
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Snow White Dove" <jlperdue3 at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2013 6:19 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update:
>>>>>> Training Programsat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Ava,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Pilot dogs does traffic checks while the dogs are in their
>>>>>>> training period
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> with the trainers, before they get to you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You're right though, there are plenty of opportunities for the
>>>>>>> dog to show
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> you it'll stop for traffic during your training itself.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hope this helps.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jenny
>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 2013, at 3:16 AM, avapup.7 at gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've heard this before, that pilot dogs doesn't do traffic checks.
>>>>>>>> As I am considering this program for after my Cocoa girl retires
>>>>>>>> I'm wondering
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> if it's maybe a difference in terminology? I mean, their dogs
>>>>>>>> are trained
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> to stop if a car approaches, right? Like, intelligent disobedience?
>>>>>>>> But is it that pilot dogs doesn't set up artificial situations
>>>>>>>> for their students where they have a car driven by a staff
>>>>>>>> member to test them? I'd
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> think that in Columbus there would be plenty of real life
>>>>>>>> traffic checks
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> without setting them up like other schools do! Ugh, Columbus
>>>>>>>> traffic! Do
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have it right or am I thinking of something different? Thanks!!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ava and Cocoa
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 2013, at 1:24 PM, rhonda cruz
>>>>>>>> <rhondaprincess at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> the staff at pilot are good.
>>>>>>>>> maybe if we got more grads from pilot they would change there
>>>>>>>>> minds, about going to a nfb convention, but i will never know,
>>>>>>>>> if i just ask.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 2013, at 7:04 AM, Star Gazer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sounds like the trainer at Pilot wasn't briefed properly
>>>>>>>>>> before giving
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> her
>>>>>>>>>> presentation.
>>>>>>>>>> Agree with Marsha, the folks in charge at Pilot could have
>>>>>>>>>> calmed her down and used it as a learning opportunity.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>>>>> Marsha Drenth
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2013 3:40 PM
>>>>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>> Users
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Update: Training Programs at NAGDU
>>>>>>>>>> Meeting
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> marion,
>>>>>>>>>> When did this happen? I am assuming before you took the
>>>>>>>>>> presidency.
>>>>>>>>>> Althought there has been those members around since those
>>>>>>>>>> time,, before
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>> took the presidency, the NAGDU is certainly different from
>>>>>>>>>> those times
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> too.
>>>>>>>>>> its unfortunate that Pilot feels that way, that they feel they
>>>>>>>>>> can not participate. I wonder if its graduates urged them to
>>>>>>>>>> do so, if they would. I do feel like that is a cop-out.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Marsha drenth
>>>>>>>>>> Sent with my IPhone
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 28, 2013, at 6:53 PM, "National Association of Guide
>>>>>>>>>> Dog Users"
>>>>>>>>>> <blind411 at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Rhonda,
>>>>>>>>>>> Pilot has not been to an NFB convention since I have been an
>>>>>>>>>>> officer. When I spoke with Jay Gray to invite him, he said
>>>>>>>>>>> Pilot would
>>>>>>>>>> never
>>>>>>>>>>> attend another convention because it was his opinion one of
>>>>>>>>>>> his trainers
>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>> embarrassed at a meeting. I don't remember the incident, but
>>>>>>>>>>> he said the trainer was asked about traffic checks and she
>>>>>>>>>>> said Pilot did not do
>>>>>>>>>> traffic
>>>>>>>>>>> checks. Apparently, the president at the time was very
>>>>>>>>>>> surprised and exclaimed, "You don't do traffic checks?"
>>>>>>>>>>> According to someone else that
>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>> there, this is how it happened and a rather strong discussion
>>>>>>>>>>> of the importance of traffic checks followed. I told Mr. Gray
>>>>>>>>>>> that I felt it
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> reasonable question and couldn't imagine not doing traffic
>>>>>>>>>>> checks while assuring him that, in spite of the fact that our
>>>>>>>>>>> members can be very assertive, I would never allow anyone to
>>>>>>>>>>> insult another nor treat anyone with disrespect or in an
>>>>>>>>>>> undignified manner. Pilot has still not chosen to attend our
>>>>>>>>>>> conventions, though!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>>>>>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -----
>>>>>>>>
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