[nagdu] "Consumer"
rhonda cruz
rhondaprincess at gmail.com
Sat Jul 13 19:22:54 UTC 2013
hello i think it is a wonderful name. and a great idea as well,
On Jul 13, 2013, at 5:27 AM, Cindy Ray wrote:
> I am neither Lyn or Tracy, but I like it myself.
>
> Cindy Lou
>
> On Jul 13, 2013, at 6:22 AM, "National Association of Guide Dog Users" <blind411 at verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> Lyn & Tracy,
>> At least for the Bill of Rights, I think we can change the title to
>> Guide Dog Users Bill of Rights. How does that set with you?
>>
>> Marion
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Star Gazer
>> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 4:48 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] "Consumer"
>>
>> I agree with Tracey, I have always thought of the NFB as a civil rights
>> organization. Wasn't it modeled after NAACP?
>> That being said, I struggle with the consumer language. Maybe if "consumer
>> of guide dog services" was used, I'd feel better.
>> I like customer, I do get Tracey's visual with a knife and fork when I
>> encounter the "consumer" label.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione
>> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 2:42 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: [nagdu] "Consumer"
>>
>> Hi Marion.
>> The NFB may call itself a consumer organization, but I usually call it a
>> civil rights organization. I do not care for being called a "consumer" in
>> any context. Somehow, I have been demoted from respected citizen, or even
>> valued customer, to a mere consumer, and I don't like it. And, when it
>> comes to being called a "guide dog consumer", I can't help picturing myself
>> with a knife and fork, sitting down to a plate of dog. Yuk!
>> I prefer customer, client, patron, student, graduate, alumna--any of those
>> are preferrable to "consumer" in my book.
>> I realize this may go against what has become common usage, but, as I said,
>> I don't like the common usage, and am doing what I can to buck the trend.
>> Tracy
>>
>>> Tracy,
>>> I would be open to hearing more about your feelings on the term
>>> "consumer". I have heard people express their views in terms of
>>> consuming
>>> (eating) guide dogs; however, that is a limited view of the term. The
>>> NFB refers to itself as a consumer organization in the sense of the
>>> economic definition as "a person or organization that uses a commodity
>>> or
>> service".
>>> From an economics point of view, consumerism is the most powerful
>>> method of effecting change and collective consumerism exponentially
>>> increases that power.
>>> During our annual meeting on July 3, we heard several training
>>> programs assert that the diversity of policies and practices between
>>> thos available offered consumers choice. Of course, for such choice to
>>> be effectively enacted upon, more information needs to be available.
>>> For instance, one training program asserts they transfer ownership
>>> after six months; however, their contract also reserves the right to
>>> repossess the dog at any time and for any reason. I'm not sure about
>>> anyone else, but I do not consider something that someone else has the
>>> right to take away from me without just cause as true ownership. When
>>> publicly asked about this provision during the NAGDU meeting, we got
>>> no response. So much for informed choice! And what about the practice
>>> of surprise visits? I have been advised this same training program
>>> regularly calls consumers to advise them they are around the corner
>>> and want to visit them within five minutes! This training program may
>>> feel as if I am picking on them; however, playing the victim is not
>>> very becoming when they treat blind consumers in such a manner! Again,
>>> more on this in future articles.
>>>
>>> Fraternally yours,
>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy
>>> Carcione
>>> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 9:36 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Quality of Training was pilot dogs traffic checks
>>>
>>> Hi Marion.
>>> I'm both a donor and a "consumer". (Boy, do I hate that term
>>> "consumer"!) I know that my dog enhances my life considerably. I
>>> think there's a fine line between expressing that truth, and the "hero
>>> dogs leading me out of my lonely darkness", sort of thing. It's easy
>>> for publicity/fundraising to stray over that line, sometimes. It
>>> annoys me a lot when it does, but I can see how it could be tricky. I
>>> think TSE usually does a pretty good job, by letting people talk about
>>> what the dog does for them, but it's not perfect.
>>> I don't think fundraising would be very effective that said something
>>> like "I can use my dog or my cane to get where I want to go, but my
>>> dog is helpful is some situations." I wonder what you think it should
>>> say? I know drippy goo when I hear it, but it can't be too blase,
>>> either. I look forward to your articles.
>>> Tracy
>>>
>>>> Dear All,
>>>> I believe that, for the most part, all the training programs do a
>>>> good job as it pertains to the quality of training. From my personal
>>>> point of view, the differences I observe are with the philosophies of
>>>> the programs and the resulting manner in which consumers are viewed
>>>> and treated. The purpose of the Guide Dog Consumers' Bill of Rights
>>>> is to outline certain standards the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>> Users and the National Federation of the Blind believe to be
>>>> dignified, respectful treatment of blind consumers. It gives blind
>>>> consumers considering a training program elements to consider when
>>>> evaluating a training program. Whether a training program agrees with
>>>> the Bill of Rights or not matters less to me than affording consumers
>>>> a tool to measure how a training program measures up.
>>>> In a market driven economy, it is best for those who provide goods
>>>> and/or services to listen to their consumers and meet their needs. As
>>>> the collective voice of blind consumers, we believe it is our
>>>> responsibility to inform the public about what we believe is a good
>>>> service by establishing reasonable standards for measuring what
>>>> quality training involves. The Bill of Rights is our operational
>>>> definition of this abstract, subjective term.
>>>> As consumers, it is our right to ask training programs how they
>>>> measure up and our responsibility to demand they modify their
>>>> policies, practices, and procedures to align themselves with what we
>>>> believe is dignified treatment.
>>>> It is my goal over the next year to publish several articles in the
>>>> Braille Monitor and on our Harness Up! Blog on this topic. As we
>>>> shift the paradigm of the blind from beneficiaries to consumers of
>>>> guide dog training programs, those who raise millions of dollars from
>>>> the public on our behalf will either need to realign their
>>>> philosophies or accept the consequences of not doing so.
>>>> All guide dog training programs have four stakeholders: Consumers,
>>>> volunteers, donors, and employees. Some programs seem to consider the
>>>> most important stakeholder to be the donor. Some of these programs
>>>> solicit donations by telling donors how important their work is and,
>>>> in so many words, how the plight of the blind is made better by
>>>> their services. Such an approach may serve the training program
>>>> employing this tactic by making the public feel sorry for us and give
>>>> money to improve our plight, but what does it do to us as blind
>>>> people? How does it impact our everyday lives?
>>>> Is
>>>> it partly responsible for the misconceptions we face from the public
>>>> many of us on this list have complained about? Is it partly
>>>> responsible for our high unemployment rate? Do the ways in which we
>>>> are portrayed by the so-called experts in the field of blindness have
>>>> an impact on our lives? These are the sorts of questions I hope to
>>>> address in the future in the effort to continue shifting the paradigm.
>>>> Your comments are respectfully requested!
>>>>
>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>
>>>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
>>>> National Federation of the Blind
>>>> (813) 626-2789 (Office)
>>>> 888-NAGDU411 (Hotline
>>>> President at nagdu.org
>>>> www.nagdu.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Danielle
>>>> Antoine
>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 1:03 AM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update: Training
>>>> Program sat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>
>>>> But, could it be that they don't know or can't tell the difference
>>>> because they have never had any other experience? Are there any other
>>>> grads who have gone to Pilot after another program on hear? I will
>>>> say that I've been on a few non-school specific lists and as stated
>>>> previously they all seem happy with there training. this is very
>>>> interesting and I don't really have much info nor have I seen any
>>>> working teams from there so I'd like to hear more about Pilot Dogs.
>>>> that's what I've always heard though that they didn't do planned
>>>> traffic checks. Kind of worrisome!
>>>>
>>>> Danielle
>>>>
>>>> On 7/10/13, rhonda cruz <rhondaprincess at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> hello may, keeps me safe every time we travel together, she has
>>>>> done many traffic checks, and we work hard to.
>>>>> i feel pilot did a good job at mamatching us.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jul 8, 2013, at 12:58 PM, Howard J. Levine wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree if a xchool is going to cut back on traffic checks what
>>>>>> else are they cutting back on. You want to know how your guide dog
>>>>>> is going ot react to problem and keep you safe.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of National
>>>>>> Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 3:49 PM
>>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update: Training
>>>>>> Program sat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rebecca.
>>>>>> This may be an issue of not knowing rather than not caring. I
>>>>>> believe traffic checks are an important part of guide dog work and,
>>>>>> to the best of my knowledge, Pilot is the only guide dog training
>>>>>> program that does not include them in their training! If Pilot
>>>>>> consumers knew how important they were and that everyone else gets
>>>>>> what they do not, perhaps they would speak up. Then again, they may
>>>>>> be met with the same sort of irrational excuses other training
>>>>>> programs offer us and we are expected to accept without question!
>>>>>> For instance, Pilot may assert that traffic checks are unnecessary
>>>>>> and their consumers are expected to accept this without question.
>>>>>> If they are not important, why does every other program put such a
>>>>>> major emphasis on them?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>>> Marion
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Star
>>>>>> Gazer
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 12:03 PM
>>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update: Training
>>>>>> Program sat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve,
>>>>>> The Pilot grads don't seem to mind this though. So why would they
>>>>>> speak up?
>>>>>> To them, it isn't a problem. To me, it's a deal breaker.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steven
>>>>>> Johnson
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 7:07 PM
>>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update: Training
>>>>>> Program sat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Deanna, you make an excellent point. Having a controlled traffic
>>>>>> check can help the student get prepared for what is inevitable.
>>>>>> Whether it is a gas powered car, quiet car, bicycle, skateboard; we
>>>>>> can begin to learn and feel how our dogs react to those situations.
>>>>>> Sometimes they are slight, and sometimes, very apparent checks as
>>>>>> we all know. What would be ideal is for the Pilot grads to step up
>>>>>> and simply make this request. The more they hear from, the more
>>>>>> likely they might listen, and a potential change could be made.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Deanna
>>>>>> Lewis
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 10:43 AM
>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update: Training
>>>>>> Programsat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am sorry, but I would rather have a trained professional driving
>>>>>> a car and testing my dog and I, than I would to have a random
>>>>>> stranger who is not paying attention come close to, or actually
>>>>>> hitting
>> us.
>>>>>> Drivers nowadays are so careless and they are always on their cell
>>>>>> phones, texting, putting on makeup, and so forth. They just do not
>>>>>> pay attention to pedestrians.
>>>>>> I strongly believe that planned traffic checks are an essential
>>>>>> part of guide dog training.
>>>>>> Deanna and Pascal
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darla
>>>>>> Rogers
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 11:30 AM
>>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update: Training
>>>>>> Programsat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Chantel,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is totally ridiculous; I wouldn't want a dog who freaked out
>>>>>> with artificial traffic checks.
>>>>>> Darla & Handsome Huck
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chantel
>>>>>> Cuddemi
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2013 11:39 PM
>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update: Training
>>>>>> Programsat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Guys,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Students and dogs were freaked out by the artificial traffic checks
>>>>>> set up by Pilot. I wasn't aware that the dogs go through artificial
>>>>>> traffic checks before we got them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 7/2/13, Larry D. Keeler <lkeeler at comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> That I didn't know! I just know that between Holly and I we don't
>>>>>>> have any probblems! She'll stop whebn cars are coming and go
>>>>>>> around those that park in the middle of the street.
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Snow White Dove" <jlperdue3 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2013 6:19 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update:
>>>>>>> Training Programsat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Ava,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Pilot dogs does traffic checks while the dogs are in their
>>>>>>>> training period
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> with the trainers, before they get to you.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You're right though, there are plenty of opportunities for the
>>>>>>>> dog to show
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> you it'll stop for traffic during your training itself.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hope this helps.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jenny
>>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 2013, at 3:16 AM, avapup.7 at gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've heard this before, that pilot dogs doesn't do traffic checks.
>>>>>>>>> As I am considering this program for after my Cocoa girl retires
>>>>>>>>> I'm wondering
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> if it's maybe a difference in terminology? I mean, their dogs
>>>>>>>>> are trained
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> to stop if a car approaches, right? Like, intelligent disobedience?
>>>>>>>>> But is it that pilot dogs doesn't set up artificial situations
>>>>>>>>> for their students where they have a car driven by a staff
>>>>>>>>> member to test them? I'd
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> think that in Columbus there would be plenty of real life
>>>>>>>>> traffic checks
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> without setting them up like other schools do! Ugh, Columbus
>>>>>>>>> traffic! Do
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have it right or am I thinking of something different? Thanks!!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ava and Cocoa
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 2013, at 1:24 PM, rhonda cruz
>>>>>>>>> <rhondaprincess at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> the staff at pilot are good.
>>>>>>>>>> maybe if we got more grads from pilot they would change there
>>>>>>>>>> minds, about going to a nfb convention, but i will never know,
>>>>>>>>>> if i just ask.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 2013, at 7:04 AM, Star Gazer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sounds like the trainer at Pilot wasn't briefed properly
>>>>>>>>>>> before giving
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> her
>>>>>>>>>>> presentation.
>>>>>>>>>>> Agree with Marsha, the folks in charge at Pilot could have
>>>>>>>>>>> calmed her down and used it as a learning opportunity.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>>>>>> Marsha Drenth
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2013 3:40 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>>> Users
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Update: Training Programs at NAGDU
>>>>>>>>>>> Meeting
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> marion,
>>>>>>>>>>> When did this happen? I am assuming before you took the
>>>>>>>>>>> presidency.
>>>>>>>>>>> Althought there has been those members around since those
>>>>>>>>>>> time,, before
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>> took the presidency, the NAGDU is certainly different from
>>>>>>>>>>> those times
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> too.
>>>>>>>>>>> its unfortunate that Pilot feels that way, that they feel they
>>>>>>>>>>> can not participate. I wonder if its graduates urged them to
>>>>>>>>>>> do so, if they would. I do feel like that is a cop-out.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Marsha drenth
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent with my IPhone
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 28, 2013, at 6:53 PM, "National Association of Guide
>>>>>>>>>>> Dog Users"
>>>>>>>>>>> <blind411 at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Rhonda,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Pilot has not been to an NFB convention since I have been an
>>>>>>>>>>>> officer. When I spoke with Jay Gray to invite him, he said
>>>>>>>>>>>> Pilot would
>>>>>>>>>>> never
>>>>>>>>>>>> attend another convention because it was his opinion one of
>>>>>>>>>>>> his trainers
>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>> embarrassed at a meeting. I don't remember the incident, but
>>>>>>>>>>>> he said the trainer was asked about traffic checks and she
>>>>>>>>>>>> said Pilot did not do
>>>>>>>>>>> traffic
>>>>>>>>>>>> checks. Apparently, the president at the time was very
>>>>>>>>>>>> surprised and exclaimed, "You don't do traffic checks?"
>>>>>>>>>>>> According to someone else that
>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>> there, this is how it happened and a rather strong discussion
>>>>>>>>>>>> of the importance of traffic checks followed. I told Mr. Gray
>>>>>>>>>>>> that I felt it
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>> reasonable question and couldn't imagine not doing traffic
>>>>>>>>>>>> checks while assuring him that, in spite of the fact that our
>>>>>>>>>>>> members can be very assertive, I would never allow anyone to
>>>>>>>>>>>> insult another nor treat anyone with disrespect or in an
>>>>>>>>>>>> undignified manner. Pilot has still not chosen to attend our
>>>>>>>>>>>> conventions, though!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> -----
>>>>>>>>>
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