[nagdu] "Consumer"
rhonda cruz
rhondaprincess at gmail.com
Sun Jul 14 16:45:40 UTC 2013
hello i also like guide dog users,
it is a great name
On Jul 14, 2013, at 8:20 AM, Margo and Arrow wrote:
> Patron reminds me of someone who loves the arts or food.
>
> Margo and Arrow
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione
> Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2013 11:10 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] "Consumer"
>
> I like patron, though it sounds odd at first. Patron is related
> linguistically to owner, and I do have an ownership stake in my school.
> Tracy
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Darla Rogers" <djrogers0628 at gmail.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 6:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] "Consumer"
>
>
>> What about Patron or participant?
>> Darla & Handsome Huck
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray
>> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 2:34 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] "Consumer"
>>
>> Well, Tracy, methinks you won't buck this trend for a long, long time. It
>> has come to be entrenched. I don't like it either, but I prefer it to
>> patient; client works for me, but client isn't general enough. Consumer is
>> the same as user, though my feeling about it was similar to yours. There
>> might not be a totally acceptable term for it, but I actually don't mind
>> it
>> as long as I continue to have a name. Once I was in our library and
>> someone
>> with whom I was speaking got a call. She said she would get back to them
>> but
>> she was with a consumer. I did think I would have preferred it if she had
>> said someone is at my desk.
>>
>> Cindy Lou
>>
>> On Jul 12, 2013, at 1:41 PM, "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Marion.
>>> The NFB may call itself a consumer organization, but I usually call it
>>> a civil rights organization. I do not care for being called a
>>> "consumer" in any context. Somehow, I have been demoted from
>>> respected citizen, or even valued customer, to a mere consumer, and I
>>> don't like it. And, when it comes to being called a "guide dog
>>> consumer", I can't help picturing myself with a knife and fork, sitting
>> down to a plate of dog. Yuk!
>>> I prefer customer, client, patron, student, graduate, alumna--any of
>>> those are preferrable to "consumer" in my book.
>>> I realize this may go against what has become common usage, but, as I
>>> said, I don't like the common usage, and am doing what I can to buck
>>> the trend.
>>> Tracy
>>>
>>>> Tracy,
>>>> I would be open to hearing more about your feelings on the term
>>>> "consumer". I have heard people express their views in terms of
>>>> consuming
>>>> (eating) guide dogs; however, that is a limited view of the term. The
>>>> NFB refers to itself as a consumer organization in the sense of the
>>>> economic definition as "a person or organization that uses a commodity
>>>> or
>> service".
>>>> From an economics point of view, consumerism is the most powerful
>>>> method of effecting change and collective consumerism exponentially
>>>> increases that power.
>>>> During our annual meeting on July 3, we heard several training
>>>> programs assert that the diversity of policies and practices between
>>>> thos available offered consumers choice. Of course, for such choice
>>>> to be effectively enacted upon, more information needs to be
>>>> available. For instance, one training program asserts they transfer
>>>> ownership after six months; however, their contract also reserves the
>>>> right to repossess the dog at any time and for any reason. I'm not
>>>> sure about anyone else, but I do not consider something that someone
>>>> else has the right to take away from me without just cause as true
>>>> ownership. When publicly asked about this provision during the NAGDU
>>>> meeting, we got no response. So much for informed choice! And what
>>>> about the practice of surprise visits? I have been advised this same
>>>> training program regularly calls consumers to advise them they are
>>>> around the corner and want to visit them within five minutes! This
>>>> training program may feel as if I am picking on them; however,
>>>> playing the victim is not very becoming when they treat blind
>>>> consumers in such a manner! Again, more on this in future articles.
>>>>
>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy
>>>> Carcione
>>>> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 9:36 AM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Quality of Training was pilot dogs traffic
>>>> checks
>>>>
>>>> Hi Marion.
>>>> I'm both a donor and a "consumer". (Boy, do I hate that term
>>>> "consumer"!) I know that my dog enhances my life considerably. I
>>>> think there's a fine line between expressing that truth, and the
>>>> "hero dogs leading me out of my lonely darkness", sort of thing.
>>>> It's easy for publicity/fundraising to stray over that line,
>>>> sometimes. It annoys me a lot when it does, but I can see how it
>>>> could be tricky. I think TSE usually does a pretty good job, by
>>>> letting people talk about what the dog does for them, but it's not
>>>> perfect.
>>>> I don't think fundraising would be very effective that said something
>>>> like "I can use my dog or my cane to get where I want to go, but my
>>>> dog is helpful is some situations." I wonder what you think it should
>>>> say? I know drippy goo when I hear it, but it can't be too blase,
>>>> either. I look forward to your articles.
>>>> Tracy
>>>>
>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>> I believe that, for the most part, all the training programs do a
>>>>> good job as it pertains to the quality of training. From my personal
>>>>> point of view, the differences I observe are with the philosophies
>>>>> of the programs and the resulting manner in which consumers are
>>>>> viewed and treated. The purpose of the Guide Dog Consumers' Bill of
>>>>> Rights is to outline certain standards the National Association of
>>>>> Guide Dog Users and the National Federation of the Blind believe to
>>>>> be dignified, respectful treatment of blind consumers. It gives
>>>>> blind consumers considering a training program elements to consider
>>>>> when evaluating a training program. Whether a training program
>>>>> agrees with the Bill of Rights or not matters less to me than
>>>>> affording consumers a tool to measure how a training program measures
>> up.
>>>>> In a market driven economy, it is best for those who provide goods
>>>>> and/or services to listen to their consumers and meet their needs.
>>>>> As the collective voice of blind consumers, we believe it is our
>>>>> responsibility to inform the public about what we believe is a good
>>>>> service by establishing reasonable standards for measuring what
>>>>> quality training involves. The Bill of Rights is our operational
>>>>> definition of this abstract, subjective term.
>>>>> As consumers, it is our right to ask training programs how they
>>>>> measure up and our responsibility to demand they modify their
>>>>> policies, practices, and procedures to align themselves with what we
>>>>> believe is dignified treatment.
>>>>> It is my goal over the next year to publish several articles in the
>>>>> Braille Monitor and on our Harness Up! Blog on this topic. As we
>>>>> shift the paradigm of the blind from beneficiaries to consumers of
>>>>> guide dog training programs, those who raise millions of dollars
>>>>> from the public on our behalf will either need to realign their
>>>>> philosophies or accept the consequences of not doing so.
>>>>> All guide dog training programs have four stakeholders: Consumers,
>>>>> volunteers, donors, and employees. Some programs seem to consider
>>>>> the most important stakeholder to be the donor. Some of these
>>>>> programs solicit donations by telling donors how important their
>>>>> work is and, in so many words, how the plight of the blind is made
>>>>> better by their services. Such an approach may serve the training
>>>>> program employing this tactic by making the public feel sorry for us
>>>>> and give money to improve our plight, but what does it do to us as
>>>>> blind people? How does it impact our everyday lives?
>>>>> Is
>>>>> it partly responsible for the misconceptions we face from the public
>>>>> many of us on this list have complained about? Is it partly
>>>>> responsible for our high unemployment rate? Do the ways in which we
>>>>> are portrayed by the so-called experts in the field of blindness
>>>>> have an impact on our lives? These are the sorts of questions I hope
>>>>> to address in the future in the effort to continue shifting the
>> paradigm.
>>>>> Your comments are respectfully requested!
>>>>>
>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>>
>>>>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>>>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
>>>>> National Federation of the Blind
>>>>> (813) 626-2789 (Office)
>>>>> 888-NAGDU411 (Hotline
>>>>> President at nagdu.org
>>>>> www.nagdu.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Danielle
>>>>> Antoine
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 1:03 AM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update: Training
>>>>> Program sat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>>
>>>>> But, could it be that they don't know or can't tell the difference
>>>>> because they have never had any other experience? Are there any
>>>>> other grads who have gone to Pilot after another program on hear? I
>>>>> will say that I've been on a few non-school specific lists and as
>>>>> stated previously they all seem happy with there training. this is
>>>>> very interesting and I don't really have much info nor have I seen
>>>>> any working teams from there so I'd like to hear more about Pilot Dogs.
>>>>> that's what I've always heard though that they didn't do planned
>>>>> traffic checks. Kind of worrisome!
>>>>>
>>>>> Danielle
>>>>>
>>>>> On 7/10/13, rhonda cruz <rhondaprincess at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> hello may, keeps me safe every time we travel together, she has
>>>>>> done many traffic checks, and we work hard to.
>>>>>> i feel pilot did a good job at mamatching us.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jul 8, 2013, at 12:58 PM, Howard J. Levine wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I agree if a xchool is going to cut back on traffic checks what
>>>>>>> else are they cutting back on. You want to know how your guide dog
>>>>>>> is going ot react to problem and keep you safe.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 3:49 PM
>>>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update:
>>>>>>> Training Program sat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rebecca.
>>>>>>> This may be an issue of not knowing rather than not caring. I
>>>>>>> believe traffic checks are an important part of guide dog work
>>>>>>> and, to the best of my knowledge, Pilot is the only guide dog
>>>>>>> training program that does not include them in their training! If
>>>>>>> Pilot consumers knew how important they were and that everyone
>>>>>>> else gets what they do not, perhaps they would speak up. Then
>>>>>>> again, they may be met with the same sort of irrational excuses
>>>>>>> other training programs offer us and we are expected to accept
>>>>>>> without
>> question!
>>>>>>> For instance, Pilot may assert that traffic checks are unnecessary
>>>>>>> and their consumers are expected to accept this without question.
>>>>>>> If they are not important, why does every other program put such a
>>>>>>> major emphasis on them?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>>>> Marion
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Star
>>>>>>> Gazer
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 12:03 PM
>>>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update:
>>>>>>> Training Program sat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Steve,
>>>>>>> The Pilot grads don't seem to mind this though. So why would they
>>>>>>> speak up?
>>>>>>> To them, it isn't a problem. To me, it's a deal breaker.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steven
>>>>>>> Johnson
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 7:07 PM
>>>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update:
>>>>>>> Training Program sat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Deanna, you make an excellent point. Having a controlled traffic
>>>>>>> check can help the student get prepared for what is inevitable.
>>>>>>> Whether it is a gas powered car, quiet car, bicycle, skateboard;
>>>>>>> we can begin to learn and feel how our dogs react to those
>>>>>>> situations.
>>>>>>> Sometimes they are slight, and sometimes, very apparent checks as
>>>>>>> we all know. What would be ideal is for the Pilot grads to step
>>>>>>> up and simply make this request. The more they hear from, the
>>>>>>> more likely they might listen, and a potential change could be made.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Deanna
>>>>>>> Lewis
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 10:43 AM
>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>> Users
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update:
>>>>>>> Training Programsat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am sorry, but I would rather have a trained professional driving
>>>>>>> a car and testing my dog and I, than I would to have a random
>>>>>>> stranger who is not paying attention come close to, or actually
>> hitting us.
>>>>>>> Drivers nowadays are so careless and they are always on their cell
>>>>>>> phones, texting, putting on makeup, and so forth. They just do not
>>>>>>> pay attention to pedestrians.
>>>>>>> I strongly believe that planned traffic checks are an essential
>>>>>>> part of guide dog training.
>>>>>>> Deanna and Pascal
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darla
>>>>>>> Rogers
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 11:30 AM
>>>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update:
>>>>>>> Training Programsat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Chantel,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That is totally ridiculous; I wouldn't want a dog who freaked out
>>>>>>> with artificial traffic checks.
>>>>>>> Darla & Handsome Huck
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chantel
>>>>>>> Cuddemi
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2013 11:39 PM
>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>> Users
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update:
>>>>>>> Training Programsat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Guys,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Students and dogs were freaked out by the artificial traffic
>>>>>>> checks set up by Pilot. I wasn't aware that the dogs go through
>>>>>>> artificial traffic checks before we got them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 7/2/13, Larry D. Keeler <lkeeler at comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> That I didn't know! I just know that between Holly and I we don't
>>>>>>>> have any probblems! She'll stop whebn cars are coming and go
>>>>>>>> around those that park in the middle of the street.
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Snow White Dove" <jlperdue3 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2013 6:19 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update:
>>>>>>>> Training Programsat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Ava,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Pilot dogs does traffic checks while the dogs are in their
>>>>>>>>> training period
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> with the trainers, before they get to you.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You're right though, there are plenty of opportunities for the
>>>>>>>>> dog to show
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> you it'll stop for traffic during your training itself.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hope this helps.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jenny
>>>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 2013, at 3:16 AM, avapup.7 at gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I've heard this before, that pilot dogs doesn't do traffic checks.
>>>>>>>>>> As I am considering this program for after my Cocoa girl
>>>>>>>>>> retires I'm wondering
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> if it's maybe a difference in terminology? I mean, their dogs
>>>>>>>>>> are trained
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> to stop if a car approaches, right? Like, intelligent
>>>>>>>>>> disobedience?
>>>>>>>>>> But is it that pilot dogs doesn't set up artificial situations
>>>>>>>>>> for their students where they have a car driven by a staff
>>>>>>>>>> member to test them? I'd
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> think that in Columbus there would be plenty of real life
>>>>>>>>>> traffic checks
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> without setting them up like other schools do! Ugh, Columbus
>>>>>>>>>> traffic! Do
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I have it right or am I thinking of something different? Thanks!!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ava and Cocoa
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 2013, at 1:24 PM, rhonda cruz
>>>>>>>>>> <rhondaprincess at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> the staff at pilot are good.
>>>>>>>>>>> maybe if we got more grads from pilot they would change there
>>>>>>>>>>> minds, about going to a nfb convention, but i will never know,
>>>>>>>>>>> if i just ask.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 2013, at 7:04 AM, Star Gazer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sounds like the trainer at Pilot wasn't briefed properly
>>>>>>>>>>>> before giving
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> her
>>>>>>>>>>>> presentation.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Agree with Marsha, the folks in charge at Pilot could have
>>>>>>>>>>>> calmed her down and used it as a learning opportunity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>>>>>>> Marsha Drenth
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2013 3:40 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>> Users
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Update: Training Programs at NAGDU
>>>>>>>>>>>> Meeting
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> marion,
>>>>>>>>>>>> When did this happen? I am assuming before you took the
>>>>>>>>>>>> presidency.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Althought there has been those members around since those
>>>>>>>>>>>> time,, before
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>> took the presidency, the NAGDU is certainly different from
>>>>>>>>>>>> those times
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> too.
>>>>>>>>>>>> its unfortunate that Pilot feels that way, that they feel
>>>>>>>>>>>> they can not participate. I wonder if its graduates urged
>>>>>>>>>>>> them to do so, if they would. I do feel like that is a cop-out.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Marsha drenth
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent with my IPhone
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 28, 2013, at 6:53 PM, "National Association of Guide
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dog Users"
>>>>>>>>>>>> <blind411 at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rhonda,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pilot has not been to an NFB convention since I have been an
>>>>>>>>>>>>> officer. When I spoke with Jay Gray to invite him, he said
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pilot would
>>>>>>>>>>>> never
>>>>>>>>>>>>> attend another convention because it was his opinion one of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> his trainers
>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> embarrassed at a meeting. I don't remember the incident, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>> he said the trainer was asked about traffic checks and she
>>>>>>>>>>>>> said Pilot did not do
>>>>>>>>>>>> traffic
>>>>>>>>>>>>> checks. Apparently, the president at the time was very
>>>>>>>>>>>>> surprised and exclaimed, "You don't do traffic checks?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> According to someone else that
>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> there, this is how it happened and a rather strong
>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion of the importance of traffic checks followed. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> told Mr. Gray that I felt it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reasonable question and couldn't imagine not doing traffic
>>>>>>>>>>>>> checks while assuring him that, in spite of the fact that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> our members can be very assertive, I would never allow
>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone to insult another nor treat anyone with disrespect or
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in an undignified manner. Pilot has still not chosen to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> attend our conventions, though!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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