[nagdu] OFF LIST Re: How long is "successful"
Sarah
coastergirl92 at gmail.com
Sat Jun 8 00:27:37 UTC 2013
Hello Tami,
What is snarking? Is it the same as snarling?
Sarah and Wizard
----- Original Message -----
From: Tami Jarvis <tami at poodlemutt.com
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Fri, 07 Jun 2013 16:52:32 -0700
Subject: [nagdu] OFF LIST Re: How long is "successful"
Yikes! Was that feeling of being blamed at the Convention when
Fisher
was having his problems? I went through that with Mitzi at
Convention
when she took to snarking. Some other handlers were supportive
and gave
good suggestions and stuff. Others... OMG! It was not at all
helpful,
and some was quite offensive. Which made me start to feel
defensive and
snarky when I knew other guide dog users were around, so guess
who
picked up on that. Sheesh! We got more or less settled down by
the end,
so I didn't totally have to avoid other guide dogs for the last
couple
of days. Then I had to do some work with Mitzi to ensure she was
fit to
be around other guides... She is much better now, although if
I'm
uptight or in pain, then I have to remember to be more cautious
with her
and just jolly her up like the wind to prevent the snark. Then
again,
when I'm super uptight and/or in a lot of pain, I'm not fit to be
in
public, either, so there you go. /lol/
Hope you enjoy Convention while Fisher has a nice vacation.
/smile/
Don't know if I would bring Mitzi if I could make it... She's
much more
mature now, but that's a pretty high-pressure environment. Would
not
want to spend another few fun-filled days with the snark monster
of the
universe!
Tami
On 06/07/2013 10:31 AM, Cindy Ray wrote:
OK, this is all good. But for the most part, a hospital does
things for and to you, the patient, and you get well or you
don't. There are, of course, some things you may have to do in
response to what the hospital did, sufch as take our meds. Now,
with a dog team, I don't know that you could have a measurement
like that. First of all, what would you measure? You train a
dog, and on paper and with the trainer, it does a great job.
Then you match it with someone. Life happens; the person maybe
has a personality that doesn't mesh with the dog; the person
doesn't keep up the training like he should; something alarms the
dog and she is traumatized. I, personally, have had two dogs
with which I was definitely unsuccessful and one that begs the
question. But I don't know for sure how that could be handled.
I'm not sure how the school could handle my current situation.
That is, I do agree it is a problem if all going wrong is the
handler's fault. For the first time ever I felt I was being a
ccused of this at the convention last summer, and this came as a
shock to me. I may revisit it, too. But I think our
relationship is a success. I just don't see what kind of raw
data could be used, but maybe there truly is some. For me,
though, I think one of the best ways to determine where I want to
acquire my dog is by visiting that school and talking to its
graduates. That's like going to the doctor. You say, "I just
love Dr. Martin; he is such a fine doctor." Someone responds,
"You have got to be kidding! I wouldn't go to that doctor again
if my life depended on it." If I had enough people say that to me
about my school, I wouldn't go there again. There is a school
discussed here rather prominently where I would have never gone
before. I probably still wouldn't, but I would be more apt to do
so than I would have 2o0 years ago. That for me is the best
statistic.
Cindy Lou
On Jun 7, 2013, at 12:19 PM, "Tracy Carcione"
<carcione at access.net> wrote:
I think we're mixing up personal success with statistical
success. I'd agree that, on a personal level, getting your dog
to do what you want with a minimum of effort, and being safe
together, constitutes success. But how do you measure that, if
you want broad statistics? The only way I can think of is to see
how long the team stays together. There will be outliers--people
who retired a dog young because of an attack, for instance, but
it's the only way I can figure to measure what I want to measure.
If someone has a better idea, I'd love to hear it.
Now, maybe you don't care. You're happy with your dog and your
school, and that's all that counts. I can dig that. But I'd
also like some level of assurance that, when I go to class, I
have the best chance of getting a dog I can work with for a long
time. Right now, all a person can do is talk to other people
from their school of choice and see how they've done. I just
wonder if there isn't some more objective measure that could be
added into the mix, to give the prospective student another way
to compare schools, and to show schools if their training is
working as well as they would like. After all, the hospital I
work for analyzes data on bad outcomes, so we can do better.
Tracy
----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry D. Keeler"
<lkeeler at comcast.net
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org
Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 12:42 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] How long is "successful"
Well, the point is that in my neighborhood, I know where those
small curbs are at. She does stop at the big ones and whenever
there are obstacles in the way. But, for me, the little ones
where I live are not that important so I don't get on Holly to do
them. I could have but its really not that important. Some
folks might not consider that successful but, i don't really
mind. I do care if obstacles are there and if she didn't stop
for them! Some folks will tolerate there dogs eating things they
shouldn't or sniffing other folks for example. What I consider
successful is that if I want Holly to do something, I can get her
to do it with a minimum of fuss. If I want her to stop at those
little curbs, she will! And, if we are somewhere that I don't
know, she will anyway. I guess success for me is knowing what
your dog will do when you do something and what your dog knows
you will do! And, if your dog listens to your commands and you
listen to the dog.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Star Gazer"
<pickrellrebecca at gmail.com
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org
Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 11:25 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] How long is "successful"
Larry,
Your post about your dog not stopping at curbs as a good example
of how
difficult this is to deal with.
Reading your post, I was thinking "I couldn't deal with that
behavior". Y
Ou feel differently. You love your dog. You and she have a
history. I don't
know your dog, and have no history with her.
I'm wondering if the statistics used on marriage and divorce
rates would
serve as a good model?
We all know people who have been married for 60 years and are
miserable.
Yet, for all kinds of reasons they stay married.
Likewise, we all know marriages that ended quickly for any
number of
reasons.
And as with dogs, we all have a friend where we think "How does
she put up
with *that*".
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry
D. Keeler
Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 11:19 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] How long is "successful"
Aggreed! My point is that too many variables exist to have a
perfect team.
You have to use some kind of continuum scale to measure. And,
what success
if for one is not the same as it is for another. If you use
saftey as you're
standard most folks I know at least have that covered.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Margo and Arrow" <margo.downey at verizon.net
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
Users'"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org
Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 10:53 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] How long is "successful"
Well, I'd say that even if a team works for one month and does
well,
they're successful. I say this because after one gets home,
things
could happen.
Dogs get sick, humans get sick, dogs die, humans die,
circumstances
change, etc., etc., etc.
I just don't think we can put too much of a figure on it. I
figure,
though, one can begin to tell how successful a team is after
they get
home and work a bit. One can also tell during class if a team
might
be successful or not.
Margoa nd Arrow
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy
Carcione
Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 8:04 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
Users
Subject: [nagdu] How long is "successful"
Darla asked how long a team has to be out to be "successful".
I'd say
at least 2 years, just to put a number on it. Or possibly 3; I
could
argue either way.
I'd be real curious to see numbers from schools of teams
graduated,
and partnerships that lasted 3 years or more. I think that
should be a
pretty good indicator as to how well the school is doing. I
mean, if
school X put out 500 teams, and 300 of them stayed together,
that's
only a 60% success rate, and not so good. But if 400 of them
worked 3
years or more, that's 80% success, which is pretty good.
Tracy
_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://host.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
info for
nagdu:
http://host.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/margo.dow
ney%4
0veriz
on.net
_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://host.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
info for
nagdu:
http://host.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/lkeeler%4
0comc
ast.net
_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://host.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
info for nagdu:
http://host.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/pickrellr
ebecca%40gm
ail.com
_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://host.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
info for nagdu:
http://host.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/lkeeler%4
0comcast.net
_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://host.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
info for nagdu:
http://host.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/carcione%
40access.net
_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://host.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
info for nagdu:
http://host.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%
40gmail.com
_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://host.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
info for nagdu:
http://host.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/tami%40po
odlemutt.com
_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://host.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
for nagdu:
http://host.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/coastergi
rl92%40gmail.com
More information about the NAGDU
mailing list