[nagdu] OFF LIST Re: How long is "successful"

Sat Jun 8 00:28:25 UTC 2013

Oops! Forgot to change the address on that. Oh, well. It's no secret my 
sweet precious was a horrible snark monster at convention lo those many 
years ago or that I had to consider ending her career before I was 
satisfied we had it worked out. Figuring out how to make her fit to 
attend functions where other guide dog users would be was tricky, since 
vocalizing is so unacceptable in those settings. So it was nice of a few 
other guide dog users to let me bring my dog so I could work on her 
while she snarked at their dog... Well, I can hang with other guide dog 
users now in peace and harmony for all, so I like that. But I still 
think that when I do get to another convention that I would rather not 
have to worry how the stress over time in that environment would affect 
her. I would love to have her excellence in finding places and people, 
but the white cane is less likely to offend anyone if it gets stressed 
out. /grin/

Tami

On 06/07/2013 04:52 PM, Tami Jarvis wrote:
> Yikes! Was that feeling of being blamed at the Convention when Fisher
> was having his problems? I went through that with Mitzi at Convention
> when she took to snarking. Some other handlers were supportive and gave
> good suggestions and stuff. Others... OMG! It was not at all helpful,
> and some was quite offensive. Which made me start to feel defensive and
> snarky when I knew other guide dog users were around, so guess who
> picked up on that. Sheesh! We got more or less settled down by the end,
> so I didn't totally have to avoid other guide dogs for the last couple
> of days. Then I had to do some work with Mitzi to ensure she was fit to
> be around other guides... She is much better now, although if I'm
> uptight or in pain, then I have to remember to be more cautious with her
> and just jolly her up like the wind to prevent the snark. Then again,
> when I'm super uptight and/or in a lot of pain, I'm not fit to be in
> public, either, so there you go. /lol/
>
> Hope you enjoy Convention while Fisher has a nice vacation. /smile/
> Don't know if I would bring Mitzi if I could make it... She's much more
> mature now, but that's a pretty high-pressure environment. Would not
> want to spend another few fun-filled days with the snark monster of the
> universe!
>
> Tami
>
> On 06/07/2013 10:31 AM, Cindy Ray wrote:
>> OK, this is all good. But for the most part, a hospital does things
>> for and to you, the patient, and you get well or you don't. There are,
>> of course, some things you may have to do in response to what the
>> hospital did, sufch as take our meds. Now, with a dog team, I don't
>> know that you could have a measurement like that. First of all, what
>> would you measure? You train a dog, and on paper and with the trainer,
>> it does a great job. Then you match it with someone. Life happens; the
>> person maybe has a personality that doesn't mesh with the dog; the
>> person doesn't keep up the training like he should; something alarms
>> the dog and she is traumatized. I, personally, have had two dogs with
>> which I was definitely unsuccessful and one that begs the question.
>> But I don't know for sure how that could be handled. I'm not sure how
>> the school could handle my current situation. That is, I do agree it
>> is a problem if all going wrong is the handler's fault. For the first
>> time ever I felt I was being a
> ccused of this at the convention last summer, and this came as a shock
> to me. I may revisit it, too. But I think our relationship is a success.
> I just don't see what kind of raw data could be used, but maybe there
> truly is some. For me, though, I think one of the best ways to determine
> where I want to acquire my dog is by visiting that school and talking to
> its graduates. That's like going to the doctor. You say, "I just love
> Dr. Martin; he is such a fine doctor." Someone responds, "You have got
> to be kidding! I wouldn't go to that doctor again if my life depended on
> it." If I had enough people say that to me about my school, I wouldn't
> go there again. There is a school discussed here rather prominently
> where I would have never gone before. I probably still wouldn't, but I
> would be more apt to do so than I would have 2o0 years ago. That for me
> is the best statistic.
>>
>> Cindy Lou
>>
>> On Jun 7, 2013, at 12:19 PM, "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I think we're mixing up personal success with statistical success.
>>> I'd agree that, on a personal level, getting your dog to do what you
>>> want with a minimum of effort, and being safe together, constitutes
>>> success.  But how do you measure that, if you want broad statistics?
>>> The only way I can think of is to see how long the team stays
>>> together.  There will be outliers--people who retired a dog young
>>> because of an attack, for instance, but it's the only way I can
>>> figure to measure what I want to measure. If someone has a better
>>> idea, I'd love to hear it.
>>> Now, maybe you don't care.  You're happy with your dog and your
>>> school, and that's all that counts.  I can dig that.  But I'd also
>>> like some level of assurance that, when I go to class, I have the
>>> best chance of getting a dog I can work with for a long time.  Right
>>> now, all a person can do is talk to other people from their school of
>>> choice and see how they've done.  I just wonder if there isn't some
>>> more objective measure that could be added into the mix, to give the
>>> prospective student another way to compare schools, and to show
>>> schools if their training is working as well as they would like.
>>> After all, the hospital I work for analyzes data on bad outcomes, so
>>> we can do better.
>>> Tracy
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry D. Keeler"
>>> <lkeeler at comcast.net>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 12:42 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] How long is "successful"
>>>
>>>
>>>> Well, the point is that in my neighborhood, I know where those small
>>>> curbs are at. She does stop at the big ones and whenever there are
>>>> obstacles in the way. But, for me, the little ones where I live are
>>>> not that important so I don't get on Holly to do them. I could have
>>>> but its really not that important. Some folks might not consider
>>>> that successful but, i don't really mind. I do  care if obstacles
>>>> are there and if she didn't stop for them! Some folks will tolerate
>>>> there dogs eating things they shouldn't or sniffing other folks for
>>>> example. What I consider successful is that if I want Holly to do
>>>> something, I can get her to do it with a minimum of fuss. If I want
>>>> her to stop at those little curbs, she will! And, if we are
>>>> somewhere that I don't know, she will anyway. I guess success for me
>>>> is knowing what your dog will do when you do something and what your
>>>> dog knows you will do! And, if your dog listens to your commands and
>>>> you listen to the dog.
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Star Gazer"
>>>> <pickrellrebecca at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 11:25 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] How long is "successful"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Larry,
>>>>> Your post about your dog not stopping at curbs as a good example of
>>>>> how
>>>>> difficult this is to deal with.
>>>>> Reading your post, I was thinking "I couldn't deal with that
>>>>> behavior". Y
>>>>> Ou feel differently. You love your dog. You and she have a history.
>>>>> I don't
>>>>> know your dog, and have no history with her.
>>>>> I'm wondering if the statistics used on marriage and divorce rates
>>>>> would
>>>>> serve as a good model?
>>>>> We all know people who have been married for 60 years and are
>>>>> miserable.
>>>>> Yet, for all kinds of reasons they stay married.
>>>>> Likewise, we all know marriages that ended quickly for any number of
>>>>> reasons.
>>>>> And as with dogs, we all have a friend where we think "How does she
>>>>> put up
>>>>> with *that*".
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry D.
>>>>> Keeler
>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 11:19 AM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] How long is "successful"
>>>>>
>>>>> Aggreed! My point is that too many variables exist to have a
>>>>> perfect team.
>>>>> You have to use some kind of continuum scale to measure. And, what
>>>>> success
>>>>> if for one is not the same as it is for another. If you use saftey
>>>>> as you're
>>>>> standard most folks I know at least have that covered.
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Margo and Arrow" <margo.downey at verizon.net>
>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>> Users'"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 10:53 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] How long is "successful"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, I'd say that even if a team works for one month and does well,
>>>>>> they're successful.  I say this because after one gets home, things
>>>>>> could happen.
>>>>>> Dogs get sick, humans get sick, dogs die, humans die, circumstances
>>>>>> change, etc., etc., etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I just don't think we can put too much of a figure on it.  I figure,
>>>>>> though, one can begin to tell how successful a team is after they get
>>>>>> home and work a bit.  One can also tell during class if a team might
>>>>>> be successful or not.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Margoa nd Arrow
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy
>>>>>> Carcione
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 8:04 AM
>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] How long is "successful"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Darla asked how long a team has to be out to be "successful".  I'd
>>>>>> say
>>>>>> at least 2 years, just to put a number on it.  Or possibly 3; I could
>>>>>> argue either way.
>>>>>> I'd be real curious to see numbers from schools of teams graduated,
>>>>>> and partnerships that lasted 3 years or more. I think that should
>>>>>> be a
>>>>>> pretty good indicator as to how well the school is doing. I mean, if
>>>>>> school X put out 500 teams, and 300 of them stayed together, that's
>>>>>> only a 60% success rate, and not so good.  But if 400 of them
>>>>>> worked 3
>>>>>> years or more, that's 80% success, which is pretty good.
>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>> 0veriz
>>>>>> on.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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