[nagdu] The Differences in Dogs and Canes

Thu Jun 27 17:28:43 UTC 2013

Hi all,

I think that Raven is strictly writing about the dog and cane as
mobility tools.  I agree that other factors need to be taken into
account before truly comparing the two.  I think that if dogs never
got sick, never had bad days, etc, they would be better than canes.
If we had guide bots rather than dogs, they might be better.  I don't
know; this is all hypothetical.

I would like to encourage you all to read the 1995 Braille monitor
about dogs and canes.  There are some very interesting articles in
there about both mobility tools.  There you can read a dog verses cane
debate.

But I think we can handle the dog verses cane discussion better than a
debate.  I feel like we can't approach it as a debate if we want to
remain on the same page about it as an organization.  It is something
that could divide us if we aren't careful.  I think it is good to
discuss why people get dogs, why people use canes all their lives, and
the differences between dogs and canes, but we shouldn't let it divide
us.  I believe that there are blind people who have misconceptions
about guide dog users, and I also believe that there are dog users who
think they are superior because their dog can find the shop a block
away.  In the NFB, we don't hold with misconceptions about the things
we do as blind people, and we believe in any tool that can make us
independent, successful members of society.

I definitely don't think anyone on this list has been acting superior
or anything like that.  I think we are handeling this discussion well.
 But I have seen this behavior at conventions and from others both in
and outside the organization.

Sorry for the rambles...

On 6/27/13, Star Gazer <pickrellrebecca at gmail.com> wrote:
> This is very well put Tracey.
> Carol, all of us do what we know and we know what we know based on the
> experiences we've had.
> The schools aren't matching people with dogs, and then saying
> "congradulations, guys, go forth and be assholes!"
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione
> Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2013 9:10 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The Differences in Dogs and Canes
>
> I work in New York City.  In midtown Manhattan especially, there are often
> crowds of people standing at street corners or waiting in line by food
> carts
> on the sidewalk.  The only way to get where I'm going is to be able to work
> through a crowd of people, either to get to the curb, or get out of the
> street, or to just move on down the road.  There are even times, near Times
> Square or Broadway, where tourists stop in the middle of the street to take
> pictures!  Working through a crowd is not the same as plowing through it.
> Ben looks for the spaces, and we can make it through without bumping
> anyone,
> though sometimes it's close.  It takes a confident dog with plenty of
> initiative, I think.
> Ben is pretty good at lines.  I've taught him "get in line", and he does a
> pretty good job at finding the end of the line and following the person in
> front of him when the line moves.
> Standing in line is not really a dog thing, and it takes some work to make
> it happen.
> Tracy
>
>> Hello All, I am new to the list, and am looking forward to learning
>> from your discussions.  I am in my 60S and recently retired.  I have
>> been a cane user all my life, but just recently applied for a guide
>> dog, so, I have a lot to learn.
>>
>>  Although I haven't had a dog, I have been around many people with
>> guide dogs, and I have noticed on many occasions, a blind person with
>> a dog will plow his way through a crowd to get to the head of the
>> line.  I feel this is rude.  My question is, Do the schools address
>> the issue of curtesy to others when using a dog?
>>
>> I have never been in New York City,   so I don't know what it is
>> like traveling there as a blind person.  Perhaps you would be trampled
>> if you are not aggressive there.
>>
>> Carol  ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org Date sent: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 11:05:00 -0400
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The Differences in Dogs and Canes
>>
>> I think a dog is much better for moving easily through a crowd.
>> I know
>> plenty of people use canes in New York City, but I imagine they have
>> to slow way down when things get crowded, or whack a lot of ankles.
>> Ben just
>> slides on through, finding spaces between people.  Ben is one of those
>> "pushy urban dogs".  Crowds are something of a specialty with him, and
>> I really appreciate that.
>> Tracy
>>
>>  Great point Nicole as even the best cane user would not find such an
>> obstacle.
>>
>>  Steve
>>
>>  -----Original Message-----
>>  From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole
>> Torcolini
>>  Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 2:08 PM
>>  To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>  Subject: [nagdu] The Differences in Dogs and Canes
>>
>>  Okay, yes, I know that this one has gone round and round before, but
>> I had  something happen today that made me just have to bring it up
>> one more  time.
>>  There is the way of thinking that says that the good cane user should
>> be  able to travel as quickly and as safely with a cane as with a dog.
>>  However,
>>  unless you wear a full body shield, I just don't think that that is
>> true.
>>  For reasons that I will not discuss here, I was out walking today
>> with my  cane rather than Lexia.  I was traversing a route that I have
>> taken  numerous  times with Lexia.  Lexia usually stays a tiny bit
>> from the edge of the side  walk.  However, as I was using my cane
>> rather than Lexia, I was trailing  the  edge.  There is a staircase
>> that comes down from a building that has a  railing that sticks out
>> farther than the bottom step.  With Lexia, this had  never before
>> posed a problem as she had cleared it as an obstacle.
>>  However,
>>  I had no way of detecting it without her; it was at hip level.
>> As a
>>  result,
>>  I ran right into it.  I was not hurt or anything, but it just goes to
>> show  that there are those things that a guide dog, at least a well
>> trained one,  usually detects that a cane cannot.
>>
>>  Nicole
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-- 
Julie McG
National Association of Guide dog Users board member,  National
Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary,
Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President,
and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
life."
John 3:16