[nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
Michael Hingson
info at michaelhingson.com
Fri Nov 1 02:45:02 UTC 2013
Hannah,
The problem is that what we define as full ownership is not what the schools
usually mean. The Seeing Eye is an organization that provides ownership. I
am not as familiar with Pilot, but Chantel indicates that Pilot also does
give ownership.
Other schools have different contracts that may or may not grant full
ownership, and that may require that if a guide retires within some length
of time the school may demand that the guide be returned for retraining or
for some other purpose. NAGDU has passed resolutions calling on all schools
to provide full ownership of guide dogs upon graduation, and that same
position is stated in NAGDU's Guide Dog Consumer Bill of Rights. Most guide
dog schools are living in the past and are as a result paternalistic to one
degree or another. They do not see the tide of aware consumers which is
turning against them and which is demanding the same rights given to other
citizens in other training situations.
Best,
Michael Hingson
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Hannah Chadwick
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:22 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: [nagdu] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
Chantel,
Thank you for the correction.
Can someone please define complete ownership when it comes to guide dogs? I
mean, if we get complete ownership, then doesn't that mean I'd get to keep
the dog no matter the age when that dog stops working? I'm just curious
since I was told that I had to send my dog back to the school because she
didn't work out but she was only 3.
Thank you, hannah
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chantel Cuddemi
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:08 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
Hanna,
Pilot Dogs gives us graduates full ownership of our dogs upon graduation
from the program.
Hope that helped,
Chantel and Motley of Pilot Dogs.
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Hannah Chadwick
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:56 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
Yes, GDB can provide more financial help if needed. I think that larger
schools tend to have more follow-up services because they have more funds as
well as trainers. I don't think Pilot gives complete ownership, but I could
be wrong since that wasn't one of my concerns when I applied. Pilot also
trains boxers and Dobermans in addition to what Raven mentioned.
On one hand I think that it is important to have a breed preference, but on
the other, I think it is the training that matters the most. There are good
things and bad things about every breed of dog. The work you put in is what
you will get out. The more effort you put into your dog will mean more
success with your team. When you get your dog, please remember that the
bonding process takes between 6 months and a year. As in my earlier email,
please feel free to email me off list if you want to know about Pilot or
Guide Dogs for the Blind.
Good luck, Hannah and Spritzie
----- Original Message -----
From: Raven Tolliver <ravend729 at gmail.com
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 19:39:50 -0400
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
Hi,
I attended Guiding Eyes for the Blind primarily because I wanted an adult
dog. As a person who never owned or handled a dog before, I thought it
important to have a dog that was physically and mentally mature, and had
established mannerisms. I wanted a golden retriever, and goldens and German
shepherds have a better work ethic as adults.
This has been proven in studies of guide dog programs and service dog
programs.
I also chose GEB because of the financial assistance. Students are allotted
$200 annually, and if your dog is 10 pounds within their target weight, the
student is given another $100. There is also an emergency fund, but it can
only be used once during a particular dog's career. The GDB grads can
correct me if I'm wrong, but I think GDB gives more financial assistance
than this. Grads from that program can explain the logistics better.
As far as what breed of dog is best at guide work, that depends on the
person. I have always adored the gentle nature and laid-back temperament of
a golden, and I would not want to live with the high energy and quirkiness
of a typical labrador. German shepherds are very serious about their work,
but they have high energy requirements.
All
three breeds are extremely loving, loyal and obedient if you bond with them
properly. All three breeds have double coats, so they both shed a lot. I
do not know as much about the other breeds put out by Pilot dogs, but people
have success with them, so you would have to ask the handlers of poodles,
dobermans, and Vieszlas.
You have to decide for yourself what you like or don't like in a dog.
And the personality is just as, if not more, important than breed.
Also, know that if you are picky about breed that it may take longer to find
you the right dog and get a class date. I was fortunate that my golden was
available so soon after I applied, but I knew that being choosy might mean a
longer wait.
To determine which school might be right for you, you should rate the
following factors by importance to you.
location of school, home-training program, special needs program, cost of
the program, length of program, financial assistance, follow up services,
ownership policy, training methods, choice to meet and keep in touch with
your dog's puppy-raisers, graduation ceremony, breeds offered, life stage of
dogs issued These are just what I can think of for now, but there are more
factors that others will bring to your attention.
If ownership is important to you, the Seeing Eye, Pilot Dogs, or Guide Dogs
of America are options. If you don't understand why ownership is important
to some people, then I will explain upon request, because it is a very
serious issue that every service dog handler should have proper
understanding of.
If home-training is important to you this is offered by Fidelco, Guiding
Eyes, and a couple other programs. Guiding Eyes usually does home-training
with returning graduates, but they have been known to approve it for first
time trainees.
I would encourage you to complete your training with your first guide dog at
the school if it is at all possible and convenient for you. The benefit is
that you will not likely feel alone in the struggles you will experience,
and also, you can get great training and doggie care tips from experienced
guide dog handlers. In addition, you could develop long standing
relationships with other classmates, which was a plus for me.
Good luck, and email me off list if you want to know more about my Guiding
Eyes experience.
On 10/31/13, Shickeytha Chandler <shickeytha at gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you all for your responses. I have actually been leaning toward a
lab or a golden because I have heard in the past that those types of dogs
are very loyal and have an even temperament. But at the same time, I want
to have an open mind and consider what other types of dogs might have to
offer. By the way, I love the names of all three of your dogs. Great dog
names!
On 10/31/13, minh ha <minh.ha927 at gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Shickeytha,
I want to echo what Hannah said in her email. I am working with my first
guide, Viva from Guide Dogs for the Blind on their Oregon campus. As a
college student, financial and post-graduation support were the two most
critical aspects that I was looking for in a guide dog school. I felt like
GDB provided both of these and I really liked their positive training
methods as well as the respectful way they treat their handlers. Regarding
the breed of dog, I think that ultimately needs to be your decision. Each
individual has their preference and people are going to tell you their
choice is the best.
GDB only works with labs and golden retrievers. My girl is a lab and I
couldn't have asked for a better dog; she's extremely energetic and playful,
but she's an excellent worker once the harness goes on.
Minh
On 10/31/13, Chantel Cuddemi <jawsgirl87 at gmail.com> wrote:
Welcome to the list!
I am working my first dog from Pilot Dogs, a standard poodle named Motley!
We've been a team for a year and eight months.
Good luck with what school you choose!
Chantel and Motley.
On 10/31/13, Hannah Chadwick <sparklylicious at gmail.com> wrote:
Hey,
Welcome to the list. I'm working my second guide, Spritz. She is from
Guide Dogs for the Blind. She is a black lab; I got her over the summer.
Since I'm a college student and having had a previous dog that was very
high-maintenance, I knew I would need financial assistance and after
support. Those were two of the major things I looked for when I applied to
schools. The training methods (positive vs negative) used in schools also
mattered to me. Of course which may vary on an individual and team basis,
but I've come to realize that food rewards go a long way. My first dog was
from Pilot because I wanted a poodle, but she retired after almost a year.
My training experience at Pilot was good, but I wasn't as experienced so I
didn't have the necessary tools to manage such a high-strung dog. Please
email me off-list if you have further questions.
Good luck with the application process and all that.
Best, Hannah and Spritz
----- Original Message -----
From: Shickeytha Chandler <shickeytha at gmail.com
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 14:08:20 -0400
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
No problem. I understand that different people have different experiences
and perspectives, and I think it is important to consider both positive
and negative. Thanks.
On 10/31/13, Mike <blinkin4342 at gmail.com> wrote:
As a Fidelco client I completely disagree with the statement that Fidelco
has contract issues. The issues are definitely personal and not Fidelco's
fault.
I have had nothing but good experiences with Fidelco over the last three
years and I know a lot of people who feel the same way. There are a
certain
handful of folks on this list who have personal issues with Fidelco and
tend
to be much louder than the people who have good experiences.
You should definitely read the contract to make sure you are aware of the
rules. That is the case with any guy dog school. Just keep an open
mind.
Every school has good and bad things. Every school has someone who loves
them and hates them. I'd recommend that you decide what breed you want,
see
what school meets your needs the best, and go forward from there.
Mike
On Oct 31, 2013, at 12:18 PM, "Larry D. Keeler"
<lkeeler at comcast.net
wrote:
First, watch out for Fidelco! They have contract issues.
Before
you
decide, make sure you read and understand the contract. The other thing,
schools when possible do give you a choice. Now always can they
accomidate
but usually they can. I went to Pilot because I wanted a poodle. They
breed them down there. However, I ended up qith a labradoodle wich is
almost as good! As for training at school or at home, I think it would be
more useful to train at hom. But, if you know your neighborhood, it
doesn't matter as much.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Shickeytha Chandler"
<shickeytha at gmail.com
To: <nagdu at nfbnet.org
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 11:44 AM
Subject: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
Hello all,
I am new to the list. I currently travel with a cane, but am very
seriously considering getting a guide dog in the near future.
I
am
doing research on guide dog schools to see which might be best for me.
I am considering Fidelco, Guiding Eyes and the Seeing Eye.
Does
anyone
on this list have either particularly positive or especially negative
experiences with any of these schools? If so, I would be interested to
hear your feedback. Also, I noticed that Fidelco does training at your
residence, whereas the other schools bring you to their campuses for
training. I would like to hear perspectives about the disadvantages
and advantages of each of these methods of training.
Finally, I know that various types of dogs are trained as guides,
ranging from labs to German Shepherds. I would like to know if schools
give you a choice as to what type of dog you are paired with.
Also, I
would be interested to hear from anyone who has worked with dogs of
various kinds; I'd like to know your thoughts as to whether there are
distinct qualities that one breed possesses that another breed does
not generally possess. Of course, I am sure all dogs are unique, even
within a breed type.
I know that is a lot of questions for one email. Thanks in advance for
any insight that you can provide.
Shickeytha
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recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was
vanity:
but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their
dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E.
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