[nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
Larry D. Keeler
lkeeler at comcast.net
Fri Nov 1 13:03:56 UTC 2013
Oh sorry, I thaught the thing said Mark! Sorry Mike! And Cindy, I personally
know some folks who are intimidated by the school they are associated with.
Thhey don't want to speak up for fear that someone will come and get there
dog!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at gmail.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 7:28 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
> Mike, I respectfully disagree with you. If they don't trust me to do the
> right thing by their dog then they shouldn't even give the dog to me. Most
> of us are adults and would do right by the dog. Many of the dogs that
> don't work out won't work out for anyone else either. Some will. Most of
> us who have full ownership of our dogs will make the decision to return
> them if it seems they would be good for someone else. So you send the dog
> back, they evaluate it and determine it is not fit, and then they have an
> adopter adopt it and you lost a dog and a pet. It works that way. To say
> we shouldn't have full ownership is to say that we as blind people aren't
> as sensitive, as intelligent, as responsible as the sighted people. I hope
> I am all of that.
>
> CL
>
> On Nov 1, 2013, at 6:20 AM, Mike <blinkin4342 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> A lot of time and money gets infested into producing a guide dog. Its
>> silly to try and pressure companies into giving complete ownership to the
>> handler. If it doesn't work out in six months or a year or even two then,
>> depending on reason, that dog could go back to the company and eventually
>> go help someone else.
>> Why turn such an investment into someone's pet when it could be so much
>> more for someone else.
>> I personally don't agree with the bill of rights. People should just
>> understand their school of choice. Its not our decision. Its theirs as a
>> business. If we as consumers don't like it then we have other schools to
>> pick from.
>> If i ran a school id probably do the same thing. Its protecting an
>> investment and smaller schools cant afford to hand out pets.
>> JMO
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 9:45 PM, "Michael Hingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hannah,
>>>
>>> The problem is that what we define as full ownership is not what the
>>> schools
>>> usually mean. The Seeing Eye is an organization that provides
>>> ownership. I
>>> am not as familiar with Pilot, but Chantel indicates that Pilot also
>>> does
>>> give ownership.
>>>
>>> Other schools have different contracts that may or may not grant full
>>> ownership, and that may require that if a guide retires within some
>>> length
>>> of time the school may demand that the guide be returned for retraining
>>> or
>>> for some other purpose. NAGDU has passed resolutions calling on all
>>> schools
>>> to provide full ownership of guide dogs upon graduation, and that same
>>> position is stated in NAGDU's Guide Dog Consumer Bill of Rights. Most
>>> guide
>>> dog schools are living in the past and are as a result paternalistic to
>>> one
>>> degree or another. They do not see the tide of aware consumers which is
>>> turning against them and which is demanding the same rights given to
>>> other
>>> citizens in other training situations.
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>>
>>> Michael Hingson
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Hannah
>>> Chadwick
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:22 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: [nagdu] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
>>>
>>> Chantel,
>>> Thank you for the correction.
>>> Can someone please define complete ownership when it comes to guide
>>> dogs? I
>>> mean, if we get complete ownership, then doesn't that mean I'd get to
>>> keep
>>> the dog no matter the age when that dog stops working? I'm just curious
>>> since I was told that I had to send my dog back to the school because
>>> she
>>> didn't work out but she was only 3.
>>> Thank you, hannah
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chantel
>>> Cuddemi
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:08 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>>
>>> Hanna,
>>>
>>> Pilot Dogs gives us graduates full ownership of our dogs upon graduation
>>> from the program.
>>>
>>> Hope that helped,
>>>
>>> Chantel and Motley of Pilot Dogs.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Hannah
>>> Chadwick
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:56 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>>
>>> Yes, GDB can provide more financial help if needed. I think that larger
>>> schools tend to have more follow-up services because they have more
>>> funds as
>>> well as trainers. I don't think Pilot gives complete ownership, but I
>>> could
>>> be wrong since that wasn't one of my concerns when I applied. Pilot
>>> also
>>> trains boxers and Dobermans in addition to what Raven mentioned.
>>> On one hand I think that it is important to have a breed preference, but
>>> on
>>> the other, I think it is the training that matters the most. There are
>>> good
>>> things and bad things about every breed of dog. The work you put in is
>>> what
>>> you will get out. The more effort you put into your dog will mean more
>>> success with your team. When you get your dog, please remember that the
>>> bonding process takes between 6 months and a year. As in my earlier
>>> email,
>>> please feel free to email me off list if you want to know about Pilot or
>>> Guide Dogs for the Blind.
>>> Good luck, Hannah and Spritzie
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Raven Tolliver <ravend729 at gmail.com
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 19:39:50 -0400
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>> I attended Guiding Eyes for the Blind primarily because I wanted an
>>> adult
>>> dog. As a person who never owned or handled a dog before, I thought it
>>> important to have a dog that was physically and mentally mature, and had
>>> established mannerisms. I wanted a golden retriever, and goldens and
>>> German
>>> shepherds have a better work ethic as adults.
>>> This has been proven in studies of guide dog programs and service dog
>>> programs.
>>> I also chose GEB because of the financial assistance. Students are
>>> allotted
>>> $200 annually, and if your dog is 10 pounds within their target weight,
>>> the
>>> student is given another $100. There is also an emergency fund, but it
>>> can
>>> only be used once during a particular dog's career. The GDB grads can
>>> correct me if I'm wrong, but I think GDB gives more financial assistance
>>> than this. Grads from that program can explain the logistics better.
>>> As far as what breed of dog is best at guide work, that depends on the
>>> person. I have always adored the gentle nature and laid-back
>>> temperament of
>>> a golden, and I would not want to live with the high energy and
>>> quirkiness
>>> of a typical labrador. German shepherds are very serious about their
>>> work,
>>> but they have high energy requirements.
>>> All
>>> three breeds are extremely loving, loyal and obedient if you bond with
>>> them
>>> properly. All three breeds have double coats, so they both shed a lot.
>>> I
>>> do not know as much about the other breeds put out by Pilot dogs, but
>>> people
>>> have success with them, so you would have to ask the handlers of
>>> poodles,
>>> dobermans, and Vieszlas.
>>> You have to decide for yourself what you like or don't like in a dog.
>>> And the personality is just as, if not more, important than breed.
>>> Also, know that if you are picky about breed that it may take longer to
>>> find
>>> you the right dog and get a class date. I was fortunate that my golden
>>> was
>>> available so soon after I applied, but I knew that being choosy might
>>> mean a
>>> longer wait.
>>> To determine which school might be right for you, you should rate the
>>> following factors by importance to you.
>>> location of school, home-training program, special needs program, cost
>>> of
>>> the program, length of program, financial assistance, follow up
>>> services,
>>> ownership policy, training methods, choice to meet and keep in touch
>>> with
>>> your dog's puppy-raisers, graduation ceremony, breeds offered, life
>>> stage of
>>> dogs issued These are just what I can think of for now, but there are
>>> more
>>> factors that others will bring to your attention.
>>> If ownership is important to you, the Seeing Eye, Pilot Dogs, or Guide
>>> Dogs
>>> of America are options. If you don't understand why ownership is
>>> important
>>> to some people, then I will explain upon request, because it is a very
>>> serious issue that every service dog handler should have proper
>>> understanding of.
>>> If home-training is important to you this is offered by Fidelco, Guiding
>>> Eyes, and a couple other programs. Guiding Eyes usually does
>>> home-training
>>> with returning graduates, but they have been known to approve it for
>>> first
>>> time trainees.
>>> I would encourage you to complete your training with your first guide
>>> dog at
>>> the school if it is at all possible and convenient for you. The benefit
>>> is
>>> that you will not likely feel alone in the struggles you will
>>> experience,
>>> and also, you can get great training and doggie care tips from
>>> experienced
>>> guide dog handlers. In addition, you could develop long standing
>>> relationships with other classmates, which was a plus for me.
>>> Good luck, and email me off list if you want to know more about my
>>> Guiding
>>> Eyes experience.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10/31/13, Shickeytha Chandler <shickeytha at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Thank you all for your responses. I have actually been leaning toward
>>> a
>>> lab or a golden because I have heard in the past that those types of
>>> dogs
>>> are very loyal and have an even temperament. But at the same time, I
>>> want
>>> to have an open mind and consider what other types of dogs might have
>>> to
>>> offer. By the way, I love the names of all three of your dogs. Great
>>> dog
>>> names!
>>>
>>> On 10/31/13, minh ha <minh.ha927 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hi Shickeytha,
>>>
>>> I want to echo what Hannah said in her email. I am working with my
>>> first
>>> guide, Viva from Guide Dogs for the Blind on their Oregon campus. As a
>>> college student, financial and post-graduation support were the two
>>> most
>>> critical aspects that I was looking for in a guide dog school. I felt
>>> like
>>> GDB provided both of these and I really liked their positive training
>>> methods as well as the respectful way they treat their handlers.
>>> Regarding
>>> the breed of dog, I think that ultimately needs to be your decision.
>>> Each
>>> individual has their preference and people are going to tell you their
>>> choice is the best.
>>> GDB only works with labs and golden retrievers. My girl is a lab and I
>>> couldn't have asked for a better dog; she's extremely energetic and
>>> playful,
>>> but she's an excellent worker once the harness goes on.
>>>
>>> Minh
>>>
>>> On 10/31/13, Chantel Cuddemi <jawsgirl87 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Welcome to the list!
>>>
>>> I am working my first dog from Pilot Dogs, a standard poodle named
>>> Motley!
>>>
>>> We've been a team for a year and eight months.
>>>
>>> Good luck with what school you choose!
>>>
>>> Chantel and Motley.
>>>
>>> On 10/31/13, Hannah Chadwick <sparklylicious at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hey,
>>> Welcome to the list. I'm working my second guide, Spritz. She is from
>>> Guide Dogs for the Blind. She is a black lab; I got her over the
>>> summer.
>>> Since I'm a college student and having had a previous dog that was very
>>> high-maintenance, I knew I would need financial assistance and after
>>> support. Those were two of the major things I looked for when I
>>> applied to
>>> schools. The training methods (positive vs negative) used in schools
>>> also
>>> mattered to me. Of course which may vary on an individual and team
>>> basis,
>>> but I've come to realize that food rewards go a long way. My first dog
>>> was
>>> from Pilot because I wanted a poodle, but she retired after almost a
>>> year.
>>> My training experience at Pilot was good, but I wasn't as experienced
>>> so I
>>> didn't have the necessary tools to manage such a high-strung dog.
>>> Please
>>> email me off-list if you have further questions.
>>> Good luck with the application process and all that.
>>> Best, Hannah and Spritz
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Shickeytha Chandler <shickeytha at gmail.com
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 14:08:20 -0400
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>>
>>> No problem. I understand that different people have different
>>> experiences
>>> and perspectives, and I think it is important to consider both
>>> positive
>>> and negative. Thanks.
>>>
>>> On 10/31/13, Mike <blinkin4342 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> As a Fidelco client I completely disagree with the statement that
>>> Fidelco
>>> has contract issues. The issues are definitely personal and not
>>> Fidelco's
>>> fault.
>>> I have had nothing but good experiences with Fidelco over the last
>>> three
>>> years and I know a lot of people who feel the same way. There are a
>>> certain
>>> handful of folks on this list who have personal issues with Fidelco and
>>> tend
>>> to be much louder than the people who have good experiences.
>>> You should definitely read the contract to make sure you are aware of
>>> the
>>> rules. That is the case with any guy dog school. Just keep an open
>>> mind.
>>> Every school has good and bad things. Every school has someone who
>>> loves
>>> them and hates them. I'd recommend that you decide what breed you
>>> want,
>>> see
>>> what school meets your needs the best, and go forward from there.
>>>
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 12:18 PM, "Larry D. Keeler"
>>> <lkeeler at comcast.net
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> First, watch out for Fidelco! They have contract issues.
>>> Before
>>> you
>>> decide, make sure you read and understand the contract. The other
>>> thing,
>>> schools when possible do give you a choice. Now always can they
>>> accomidate
>>> but usually they can. I went to Pilot because I wanted a poodle. They
>>> breed them down there. However, I ended up qith a labradoodle wich is
>>> almost as good! As for training at school or at home, I think it would
>>> be
>>> more useful to train at hom. But, if you know your neighborhood, it
>>> doesn't matter as much.
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shickeytha Chandler"
>>> <shickeytha at gmail.com
>>> To: <nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 11:44 AM
>>> Subject: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>>
>>>
>>> Hello all,
>>>
>>> I am new to the list. I currently travel with a cane, but am very
>>> seriously considering getting a guide dog in the near future.
>>> I
>>> am
>>> doing research on guide dog schools to see which might be best for me.
>>> I am considering Fidelco, Guiding Eyes and the Seeing Eye.
>>> Does
>>> anyone
>>> on this list have either particularly positive or especially negative
>>> experiences with any of these schools? If so, I would be interested to
>>> hear your feedback. Also, I noticed that Fidelco does training at your
>>> residence, whereas the other schools bring you to their campuses for
>>> training. I would like to hear perspectives about the disadvantages
>>> and advantages of each of these methods of training.
>>>
>>> Finally, I know that various types of dogs are trained as guides,
>>> ranging from labs to German Shepherds. I would like to know if schools
>>> give you a choice as to what type of dog you are paired with.
>>> Also, I
>>> would be interested to hear from anyone who has worked with dogs of
>>> various kinds; I'd like to know your thoughts as to whether there are
>>> distinct qualities that one breed possesses that another breed does
>>> not generally possess. Of course, I am sure all dogs are unique, even
>>> within a breed type.
>>>
>>> I know that is a lot of questions for one email. Thanks in advance for
>>> any insight that you can provide.
>>>
>>> Shickeytha
>>>
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>>> --
>>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty
>>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was
>>> vanity:
>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on
>>> their
>>> dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E.
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