[nagdu] Ownership and Other Agreements was Guide Dog Schools

Tracy Carcione carcione at access.net
Fri Nov 1 18:26:22 UTC 2013


I wonder why they're not readily available, then.  Perhaps, rightly or 
wrongly, it's the last thing on an applicant's mind?
Tracy

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Star Gazer" <pickrellrebecca at gmail.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 1:13 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership and Other Agreements was Guide Dog Schools


> No, they aren't.I think that's one reason Marian and others care so much
> about this.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione
> Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 1:06 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership and Other Agreements was Guide Dog Schools
>
> I would have thought, in this day and age, that the ownership agreements
> would be available on the admissions portion of a school's website, so a
> prospective student could read and consider it before he or she applied. 
> Is
> this not the case?
> My dog is from TSE, whose ownership agreement is as simple as it gets, so 
> I
> didn't pay much attention, last time I was applying.
> Tracy
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "National Association of Guide Dog Users" <blind411 at verizon.net>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 12:23 PM
> Subject: [nagdu] Ownership and Other Agreements was Guide Dog Schools
>
>
>> Chantel,
>> It is my understanding that Pilot does not transfer ownership upon
>> completion of training. Do you have a copy of the Pilot agreement
>> concerning
>> this? As was stated on this list a little earlier, there are those who
>> would
>> share misinformation about the training programs and, in an effort to
>> provide accurate information from an objective point of view, I would 
>> like
>> to see the agreements from the training programs. NAGDU has requested 
>> this
>> information from each of the programs and the only ones that were
>> cooperative were the Guide Dog
>> Foundation and Guide Dogs of America. I do have the Fidelco agreement, as
>> posted to the list; however, this was given to me by a consumer, not by
>> Fidelco. I know it is a true representation of the agreement, as other
>> Fidelco consumers have shared their agreements with me and they are
>> identical.
>>
>> It is my contention that, if the training programs feel confident
>> with their agreements, they should be willing to share them with
>> representative consumer organization in the interest of transparency and
>> accountability. Failing this, it would be great if consumers would share
>> their agreements with us.
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>>
>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
>> National Federation of the Blind
>> (813) 626-2789 (Office)
>> 888-NAGDU411 (Hotline
>> President at nagdu.org
>> www.nagdu.org
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chantel 
>> Cuddemi
>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:08 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>
>> Hanna,
>>
>> Pilot Dogs gives us graduates full ownership of our dogs upon graduation
>> from the program.
>>
>> Hope that helped,
>>
>> Chantel and Motley of Pilot Dogs.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Hannah 
>> Chadwick
>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:56 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>
>> Yes, GDB can provide more financial help if needed.  I think that larger
>> schools tend to have more follow-up services because they have more funds
>> as
>> well as trainers.  I don't think Pilot gives complete ownership, but I
>> could
>> be wrong since that wasn't one of my concerns when I applied.  Pilot also
>> trains boxers and Dobermans in addition to what Raven mentioned.
>> On one hand I think that it is important to have a breed preference, but
>> on
>> the other, I think it is the training that matters the most.  There are
>> good
>> things and bad things about every breed of dog.  The work you put in is
>> what
>> you will get out.  The more effort you put into your dog will mean more
>> success with your team.  When you get your dog, please remember that the
>> bonding process takes between 6 months and a year.  As in my earlier
>> email,
>> please feel free to email me off list if you want to know about Pilot or
>> Guide Dogs for the Blind.
>> Good luck, Hannah and Spritzie
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Raven Tolliver <ravend729 at gmail.com
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 19:39:50 -0400
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>
>> Hi,
>> I attended Guiding Eyes for the Blind primarily because I wanted an adult
>> dog.  As a person who never owned or handled a dog before, I thought it
>> important to have a dog that was physically and mentally mature, and had
>> established mannerisms.  I wanted a golden retriever, and goldens and
>> German
>> shepherds have a better work ethic as adults.
>> This has been proven in studies of guide dog programs and service dog
>> programs.
>> I also chose GEB because of the financial assistance.  Students are
>> allotted
>> $200 annually, and if your dog is 10 pounds within their target weight,
>> the
>> student is given another $100.  There is also an emergency fund, but it
>> can
>> only be used once during a particular dog's career.  The GDB grads can
>> correct me if I'm wrong, but I think GDB gives more financial assistance
>> than this.  Grads from that program can explain the logistics better.
>> As far as what breed of dog is best at guide work, that depends on the
>> person.  I have always adored the gentle nature and laid-back temperament
>> of
>> a golden, and I would not want to live with the high energy and 
>> quirkiness
>> of a typical labrador.  German shepherds are very serious about their
>> work,
>> but they have high energy requirements.
>> All
>> three breeds are extremely loving, loyal and obedient if you bond with
>> them
>> properly.  All three breeds have double coats, so they both shed a lot. 
>> I
>> do not know as much about the other breeds put out by Pilot dogs, but
>> people
>> have success with them, so you would have to ask the handlers of poodles,
>> dobermans, and Vieszlas.
>> You have to decide for yourself what you like or don't like in a dog.
>> And the personality is just as, if not more, important than breed.
>> Also, know that if you are picky about breed that it may take longer to
>> find
>> you the right dog and get a class date.  I was fortunate that my golden
>> was
>> available so soon after I applied, but I knew that being choosy might 
>> mean
>
>> a
>> longer wait.
>> To determine which school might be right for you, you should rate the
>> following factors by importance  to you.
>> location of school, home-training program, special needs program, cost of
>> the program, length of program, financial assistance, follow up services,
>> ownership policy, training methods, choice to meet and keep in touch with
>> your dog's puppy-raisers, graduation ceremony, breeds offered, life stage
>> of
>> dogs issued These are just what I can think of for now, but there are 
>> more
>> factors that others will bring to your attention.
>> If ownership is important to you, the Seeing Eye, Pilot Dogs, or Guide
>> Dogs
>> of America are options.  If you don't understand why ownership is
>> important
>> to some people, then I will explain upon request, because it is a very
>> serious issue that every service dog handler should have proper
>> understanding of.
>> If home-training is important to you this is offered by Fidelco, Guiding
>> Eyes, and a couple other programs.  Guiding Eyes usually does
>> home-training
>> with returning graduates, but they have been known to approve it for 
>> first
>> time trainees.
>> I would encourage you to complete your training with your first guide dog
>> at
>> the school if it is at all possible and convenient for you.  The benefit
>> is
>> that you will not likely feel alone in the struggles you will experience,
>> and also, you can get great training and doggie care tips from 
>> experienced
>> guide dog handlers.  In addition, you could develop long standing
>> relationships with other classmates, which was a plus for me.
>> Good luck, and email me off list if you want to know more about my 
>> Guiding
>> Eyes experience.
>>
>>
>> On 10/31/13, Shickeytha Chandler <shickeytha at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Thank you all for your responses.  I have actually been leaning toward  a
>> lab or a golden because I have heard in the past that those types of 
>> dogs
>> are very loyal and have an even temperament.  But at the same  time, I
>> want
>> to have an open mind and consider what other types of  dogs might have to
>> offer.  By the way, I love the names of all three of  your dogs.  Great
>> dog
>> names!
>>
>> On 10/31/13, minh ha <minh.ha927 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi Shickeytha,
>>
>> I want to echo what Hannah said in her email.  I am working with my 
>> first
>> guide, Viva from Guide Dogs for the Blind on their Oregon  campus.  As a
>> college student, financial and post-graduation support  were the two most
>> critical aspects that I was looking for in a guide  dog school.  I felt
>> like
>> GDB provided both of these and I really liked  their positive training
>> methods as well as the respectful way they  treat their handlers.
>> Regarding
>> the breed of dog, I think that  ultimately needs to be your decision.
>> Each
>> individual has their  preference and people are going to tell you their
>> choice is the best.
>> GDB only works with labs and golden retrievers.  My girl is a lab and I
>> couldn't have asked for a better dog; she's extremely energetic and
>> playful, but she's an excellent worker once the harness goes on.
>>
>> Minh
>>
>> On 10/31/13, Chantel Cuddemi <jawsgirl87 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Welcome to the  list!
>>
>> I am working my first dog from Pilot Dogs, a standard poodle named
>> Motley!
>>
>> We've been a team for a year and eight months.
>>
>> Good luck with what school you choose!
>>
>> Chantel and Motley.
>>
>> On 10/31/13, Hannah Chadwick <sparklylicious at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hey,
>> Welcome to the list.  I'm working my second guide, Spritz.  She  is from
>> Guide Dogs for the Blind.  She is a black lab; I got her  over the 
>> summer.
>> Since I'm a college student and having had a previous dog that  was very
>> high-maintenance, I knew I would need financial  assistance and after
>> support.  Those were two of the major things  I looked for when I applied
>> to
>> schools.  The training methods  (positive vs negative) used in schools
>> also
>> mattered to me.  Of  course which may vary on an individual and team
>> basis,
>> but I've  come to realize that food rewards go a long way.  My first dog
>> was from Pilot because I wanted a poodle, but she retired after  almost a
>> year.  My training experience at Pilot was good, but I  wasn't as
>> experienced so I didn't have the necessary tools to  manage such a
>> high-strung dog.  Please email me off-list if you  have further 
>> questions.
>> Good luck with the application process  and all that.
>> Best, Hannah and Spritz
>>  ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Shickeytha Chandler <shickeytha at gmail.com
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog  Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org  Date sent: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 14:08:20 -0400
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>
>> No problem.  I understand that different people have different
>> experiences
>> and perspectives, and I think it is important to  consider  both positive
>> and negative.  Thanks.
>>
>> On 10/31/13, Mike <blinkin4342 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>  As a Fidelco client I completely disagree with the statement  that
>> Fidelco
>>  has contract issues.  The issues are definitely personal and not
>> Fidelco's
>>  fault.
>>  I have had nothing but good experiences with Fidelco over the  last 
>> three
>>  years and I know a lot of people who feel the same way.  There  are a
>> certain
>>  handful of folks on this list who have personal issues with  Fidelco and
>> tend
>>  to be much louder than the people who have good experiences.
>>  You should definitely read the contract to make sure you are  aware of
>> the
>>  rules.  That is the case with any guy dog school.  Just keep an  open
>> mind.
>>  Every school has good and bad things.  Every school has someone  who
>> loves
>>  them and hates them.  I'd recommend that you decide what breed  you 
>> want,
>> see
>>  what school meets your needs the best, and go forward from  there.
>>
>>
>>  Mike
>>
>>  On Oct 31, 2013, at 12:18 PM, "Larry D.  Keeler"
>> <lkeeler at comcast.net
>>  wrote:
>>
>>  First, watch out for Fidelco! They have contract issues.
>> Before
>> you
>>  decide, make sure you read and understand the contract.  The
>> other thing,
>>  schools when possible do give you a choice.  Now always can
>> they
>> accomidate
>>  but usually they can.  I went to Pilot because I wanted a
>> poodle.  They
>>  breed them down there.  However, I ended up qith a labradoodle
>> wich is
>>  almost as good! As for training at school or at home, I think
>> it
>> would be
>>  more useful to train at hom.  But, if you know your
>> neighborhood, it
>>  doesn't matter as much.
>>  ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shickeytha Chandler"
>>  <shickeytha at gmail.com
>>  To: <nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>  Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 11:44 AM
>>  Subject: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>
>>
>>  Hello all,
>>
>>  I am new to the list.  I currently travel with a cane, but am
>> very
>>  seriously considering getting a guide dog in the near future.
>> I
>> am
>>  doing research on guide dog schools to see which might be best
>> for me.
>>  I am considering Fidelco, Guiding Eyes and the Seeing Eye.
>> Does
>> anyone
>>  on this list have either particularly positive or especially
>> negative
>>  experiences with any of these schools? If so, I would be
>> interested to
>>  hear your feedback.  Also, I noticed that Fidelco does training
>> at your
>>  residence, whereas the other schools bring you to their
>> campuses
>> for
>>  training.  I would like to hear perspectives about the
>> disadvantages
>>  and advantages of each of these methods of training.
>>
>>  Finally, I know that various types of dogs are trained as
>> guides,
>>  ranging from labs to German Shepherds.  I would like to know if
>> schools
>>  give you a choice as to what type of dog you are paired with.
>> Also, I
>>  would be interested to hear from anyone who has worked with
>> dogs
>> of
>>  various kinds; I'd like to know your thoughts as to whether
>> there are
>>  distinct qualities that one breed possesses that another breed
>> does
>>  not generally possess.  Of course, I am sure all dogs are
>> unique, even
>>  within a breed type.
>>
>>  I know that is a lot of questions for one email.  Thanks in
>> advance for
>>  any insight that you can provide.
>>
>>  Shickeytha
>>
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>>
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>> --
>> "All men dream, but not equally.  Those who dream by night in
>> the dusty
>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was
>> vanity:
>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act
>> on
>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T.  E.
>> Lawrence
>>
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>> --
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>>
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