[nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com
ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com
Sat Nov 2 03:05:47 UTC 2013
Marion
Where did you get your current guy dog? For some reason I thought you went to Southeastern.
Lora
Sent from my iPhone
> On Nov 1, 2013, at 8:52 PM, "National Association of Guide Dog Users" <blind411 at verizon.net> wrote:
>
> Mike,
> Though we may "agree to disagree", the fact is that it is not a
> matter of opinion; rather, it is a matter of fact. I have provided the
> Fidelco agreement to support my assertion. As my previous message states,
> guide dog training programs do not give us the dogs; they are the channels
> through which the dog is given. I know you are faithful to Fidelco; however,
> when wrongdoing occurs, such faithfulness tends to cloud logic. When the
> training program from which I received my first three dogs began to engage
> in unjust and unethical behavior, I chose to disassociate with them and find
> a program with which I felt comfortable. As consumers, we have not only the
> right, but the responsibility to create change by our behavior. Many others
> saw the same thing I did and now the program has found the need to shift
> focus away from guide dog training. They have gone from nearly 200 teams per
> year to only 80. What does that say about consumerism?
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion Gwizdala
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike
> Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 4:53 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
>
> Marion,
> Let's just agree to disagree shall we?
> Guide dogs and cars cannot be compared. We don't pay for these dogs unless
> we hire trainers and buy the dogs. The schools do. We, or our sighted
> friends and families, do pay for the vehicles we drive around so that
> argument makes no sense at all.
> There are plenty of things that people, both sighted and blind, use on a
> daily basis without owning. Like the operating system on your computer for
> example. The fact that these schools don't turn ownership over has nothing
> to do with the fact that we are blind. That is only an issue because you
> decided it was.
> I am prior military, everything I used, both in the states and while in
> Afghanistan, didn't belong to me. Its that way with every member in the
> service and its not because we are incapable of taking care of it or
> incompetent. Its to protect the investment made in the equipment. If for
> whatever reason, I am in capable of doing things correctly, then the
> equipment gets given to somebody who will.
> I have met a fair share of incompetent dog handlers and know of some who
> didn't take proper care of their dog and maintain the training. Then when
> the company tries to intervene to correct the problems and keep them safe
> they take it as a personal attack and we end up with situations like we have
> here. Just a couple people, who feel like they have been mistreated, who are
> now doing everything they can to destroy a reputation.
> I know this isn't the case every time. I know you probably have dealt with
> people who have been legitimately mistreated but I just don't think that
> pushing these schools to agree with you is the right thing to do.
> This is my opinion. Feel free to pick it apart and show me all the ways you
> think I'm wrong but I don't, and won't, strong arm these schools because of
> a few personal problem's. If the issue is actually a big deal and not just a
> knee jerk reaction to someone feeling wronged then the school will realize
> it when they stop getting clients and returning customers.
> Like I said, I'm a Fidelco client and people on list, mostly you Marion,
> demonize them because of a couple bat stories. There are a lot more happy
> Fidelco clients than not I'm willing to bet. They just don't dare speak up
> anymore because of the false reputation for Fidelco that you have helped
> build.
> Like I said, I'm sure there are plenty of people who have actually been
> mistreated by different companies. But I also know for a fact, that there
> are people out there who have had their dogs taken away for a very good
> reason. Not to them, but people who have seen the relationship said it was a
> good thing.
> Very few people will actually admit to doing something wrong and having
> their dog taken away. Stories have a tendency to be blown out of proportion
> very quickly. It is not good practiced to just side with the guy dog
> handler.
> For that reason, I will be waiting until I hear more than just a couple of
> stories before I get involved with any of this. I'm not going to push any of
> these organizations around and try to force my will on them.
> My goal here is not to create contention and cause issues. But I think it is
> only fair that we hear both sides of this argument. People can, and will,
> believe whatever they want but it is only fair that both sides be
> represented here. Not all of us agree with some of these things that are
> going on so keep that in mind.
> Marian, I do not think you're a bad person and I do not have any negative
> feelings toward you so please don't take these emails that way. You are A
> person who believes what you do with passion and I think that is admirable
> but sometimes I feel like it goes too far.
> Again you guys, this is not a personal attack on anybody this is just how I
> feel. If anybody wants to discuss it off list I am more than willing to do
> so. I am more than open to sharing stories and listening to others. I'm
> going to step off of my soap box now and get back to my daily routine.
>
> I hope y'all have a nice day.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>>> On Nov 1, 2013, at 11:42 AM, "National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <blind411 at verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>> Mike,
>>
>> The issue is not one of "handing out pets" or "protecting an investment".
>> It is one of dignity, respect, and accountability. Ownership carries
>> with it certain privileges, among them the avoidance of arbitrary
>> interference by those who fail to recognize the ability of the blind,
>> believing their rights preempt those of the blind. No matter how you
>> dissect this issue, the unwillingness to transfer ownership is founded
>> in an archaic paternalistic attitude that cannot be justified by any
> objective evidence.
>>
>> As Vice President Hingson stated and is our experience in light of
>> the numerous instances in which guide dogs have been removed without
>> cause, ownership is the only rational policy if one believes blind
>> people should be treated equitably with our sighted peers. Though
>> Fidelco asserts they transfer ownership after six months, their
>> agreement is far short of true ownership. Since when does a car
>> dealership have the right to repossess a dog at their sole and
>> absolute discretion. I know there are those who will argue that a dog
>> is diferent than a car; however, under the law, a dog is property no
>> different than a car, in spite of the fact that it is a living
>> breathing animal. In fact, following tthis argument to it slogical
>> end, how much more attached does one become to a living being that
>> offers unconcditional love an acceptance. After becoming attached to
>> such a being, should we not have the right to protect ourselves from
>> arbitrary, unjust interference from an organization that will result in an
> emotional bond being broken without cause?
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>>
>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
>> National Federation of the Blind
>> (813) 626-2789 (Office)
>> 888-NAGDU411 (Hotline
>> President at nagdu.org
>> www.nagdu.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike
>> Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 7:20 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
>>
>> A lot of time and money gets infested into producing a guide dog. Its
>> silly to try and pressure companies into giving complete ownership to the
> handler.
>> If it doesn't work out in six months or a year or even two then,
>> depending on reason, that dog could go back to the company and
>> eventually go help someone else.
>> Why turn such an investment into someone's pet when it could be so
>> much more for someone else.
>> I personally don't agree with the bill of rights. People should just
>> understand their school of choice. Its not our decision. Its theirs
>> as a business. If we as consumers don't like it then we have other
>> schools to pick from.
>> If i ran a school id probably do the same thing. Its protecting an
>> investment and smaller schools cant afford to hand out pets.
>> JMO
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 9:45 PM, "Michael Hingson"
>>>> <info at michaelhingson.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hannah,
>>>
>>> The problem is that what we define as full ownership is not what the
>>> schools usually mean. The Seeing Eye is an organization that
>>> provides ownership. I am not as familiar with Pilot, but Chantel
>>> indicates that Pilot also does give ownership.
>>>
>>> Other schools have different contracts that may or may not grant full
>>> ownership, and that may require that if a guide retires within some
>>> length of time the school may demand that the guide be returned for
>>> retraining or for some other purpose. NAGDU has passed resolutions
>>> calling on all schools to provide full ownership of guide dogs upon
>>> graduation, and that same position is stated in NAGDU's Guide Dog
>>> Consumer Bill of Rights. Most guide dog schools are living in the
>>> past and are as a result paternalistic to one degree or another.
>>> They do not see the tide of aware consumers which is turning against
>>> them and which is demanding the same rights given to other citizens
>>> in other
>> training situations.
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>>
>>> Michael Hingson
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Hannah
>>> Chadwick
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:22 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: [nagdu] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
>>>
>>> Chantel,
>>> Thank you for the correction.
>>> Can someone please define complete ownership when it comes to guide
>>> dogs? I mean, if we get complete ownership, then doesn't that mean
>>> I'd get to keep the dog no matter the age when that dog stops
>>> working? I'm just curious since I was told that I had to send my dog
>>> back to the school because she didn't work out but she was only 3.
>>> Thank you, hannah
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chantel
>>> Cuddemi
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:08 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>>
>>> Hanna,
>>>
>>> Pilot Dogs gives us graduates full ownership of our dogs upon
>>> graduation from the program.
>>>
>>> Hope that helped,
>>>
>>> Chantel and Motley of Pilot Dogs.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Hannah
>>> Chadwick
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:56 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>>
>>> Yes, GDB can provide more financial help if needed. I think that
>>> larger schools tend to have more follow-up services because they have
>>> more funds as well as trainers. I don't think Pilot gives complete
>>> ownership, but I could be wrong since that wasn't one of my concerns
>>> when I applied. Pilot also trains boxers and Dobermans in addition
>>> to
>> what Raven mentioned.
>>> On one hand I think that it is important to have a breed preference,
>>> but on the other, I think it is the training that matters the most.
>>> There are good things and bad things about every breed of dog. The
>>> work you put in is what you will get out. The more effort you put
>>> into your dog will mean more success with your team. When you get
>>> your dog, please remember that the bonding process takes between 6
>>> months and a year. As in my earlier email, please feel free to email
>>> me off list if you want to know about Pilot or Guide Dogs for the Blind.
>>> Good luck, Hannah and Spritzie
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Raven Tolliver <ravend729 at gmail.com
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 19:39:50 -0400
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>> I attended Guiding Eyes for the Blind primarily because I wanted an
>>> adult dog. As a person who never owned or handled a dog before, I
>>> thought it important to have a dog that was physically and mentally
>>> mature, and had established mannerisms. I wanted a golden retriever,
>>> and goldens and German shepherds have a better work ethic as adults.
>>> This has been proven in studies of guide dog programs and service dog
>>> programs.
>>> I also chose GEB because of the financial assistance. Students are
>>> allotted
>>> $200 annually, and if your dog is 10 pounds within their target
>>> weight, the student is given another $100. There is also an
>>> emergency fund, but it can only be used once during a particular dog's
> career.
>>> The GDB grads can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think GDB gives more
>>> financial assistance than this. Grads from that program can explain
>>> the
>> logistics better.
>>> As far as what breed of dog is best at guide work, that depends on
>>> the person. I have always adored the gentle nature and laid-back
>>> temperament of a golden, and I would not want to live with the high
>>> energy and quirkiness of a typical labrador. German shepherds are
>>> very serious about their work, but they have high energy requirements.
>>> All
>>> three breeds are extremely loving, loyal and obedient if you bond
>>> with them properly. All three breeds have double coats, so they both
>>> shed a lot. I do not know as much about the other breeds put out by
>>> Pilot dogs, but people have success with them, so you would have to
>>> ask the handlers of poodles, dobermans, and Vieszlas.
>>> You have to decide for yourself what you like or don't like in a dog.
>>> And the personality is just as, if not more, important than breed.
>>> Also, know that if you are picky about breed that it may take longer
>>> to find you the right dog and get a class date. I was fortunate that
>>> my golden was available so soon after I applied, but I knew that
>>> being choosy might mean a longer wait.
>>> To determine which school might be right for you, you should rate the
>>> following factors by importance to you.
>>> location of school, home-training program, special needs program,
>>> cost of the program, length of program, financial assistance, follow
>>> up services, ownership policy, training methods, choice to meet and
>>> keep in touch with your dog's puppy-raisers, graduation ceremony,
>>> breeds offered, life stage of dogs issued These are just what I can
>>> think of for now, but there are more factors that others will bring
>>> to your
>> attention.
>>> If ownership is important to you, the Seeing Eye, Pilot Dogs, or
>>> Guide Dogs of America are options. If you don't understand why
>>> ownership is important to some people, then I will explain upon
>>> request, because it is a very serious issue that every service dog
>>> handler should have proper understanding of.
>>> If home-training is important to you this is offered by Fidelco,
>>> Guiding Eyes, and a couple other programs. Guiding Eyes usually does
>>> home-training with returning graduates, but they have been known to
>>> approve it for first time trainees.
>>> I would encourage you to complete your training with your first guide
>>> dog at the school if it is at all possible and convenient for you.
>>> The benefit is that you will not likely feel alone in the struggles
>>> you will experience, and also, you can get great training and doggie
>>> care tips from experienced guide dog handlers. In addition, you
>>> could develop long standing relationships with other classmates,
>>> which was a
>> plus for me.
>>> Good luck, and email me off list if you want to know more about my
>>> Guiding Eyes experience.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10/31/13, Shickeytha Chandler <shickeytha at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Thank you all for your responses. I have actually been leaning
>>> toward a lab or a golden because I have heard in the past that those
>>> types of dogs are very loyal and have an even temperament. But at
>>> the same time, I want to have an open mind and consider what other
>>> types of dogs might have to offer. By the way, I love the names of
>>> all three of your dogs. Great dog names!
>>>
>>> On 10/31/13, minh ha <minh.ha927 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hi Shickeytha,
>>>
>>> I want to echo what Hannah said in her email. I am working with my
>>> first guide, Viva from Guide Dogs for the Blind on their Oregon
>>> campus. As a college student, financial and post-graduation support
>>> were the two most critical aspects that I was looking for in a guide
>>> dog school. I felt like GDB provided both of these and I really
>>> liked their positive training methods as well as the respectful way
>>> they treat their handlers. Regarding the breed of dog, I think that
>>> ultimately needs to be your decision. Each individual has their
>>> preference and people are going to tell you their choice is the best.
>>> GDB only works with labs and golden retrievers. My girl is a lab and
>>> I couldn't have asked for a better dog; she's extremely energetic and
>>> playful, but she's an excellent worker once the harness goes on.
>>>
>>> Minh
>>>
>>> On 10/31/13, Chantel Cuddemi <jawsgirl87 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Welcome to the list!
>>>
>>> I am working my first dog from Pilot Dogs, a standard poodle named
>> Motley!
>>>
>>> We've been a team for a year and eight months.
>>>
>>> Good luck with what school you choose!
>>>
>>> Chantel and Motley.
>>>
>>> On 10/31/13, Hannah Chadwick <sparklylicious at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hey,
>>> Welcome to the list. I'm working my second guide, Spritz. She is
>>> from Guide Dogs for the Blind. She is a black lab; I got her over the
>> summer.
>>> Since I'm a college student and having had a previous dog that was
>>> very high-maintenance, I knew I would need financial assistance and
>>> after support. Those were two of the major things I looked for when
>>> I applied to schools. The training methods (positive vs negative)
>>> used in schools also mattered to me. Of course which may vary on an
>>> individual and team basis, but I've come to realize that food rewards
>>> go a long way. My first dog was from Pilot because I wanted a poodle,
> but
>> she retired after almost a year.
>>> My training experience at Pilot was good, but I wasn't as experienced
>>> so I didn't have the necessary tools to manage such a high-strung
>>> dog. Please email me off-list if you have further questions.
>>> Good luck with the application process and all that.
>>> Best, Hannah and Spritz
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Shickeytha Chandler <shickeytha at gmail.com
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 14:08:20 -0400
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>>
>>> No problem. I understand that different people have different
>>> experiences and perspectives, and I think it is important to consider
>>> both positive and negative. Thanks.
>>>
>>> On 10/31/13, Mike <blinkin4342 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> As a Fidelco client I completely disagree with the statement that
>>> Fidelco has contract issues. The issues are definitely personal and
>>> not Fidelco's fault.
>>> I have had nothing but good experiences with Fidelco over the last
>>> three years and I know a lot of people who feel the same way. There
>>> are a certain handful of folks on this list who have personal issues
>>> with Fidelco and tend to be much louder than the people who have
>>> good experiences.
>>> You should definitely read the contract to make sure you are aware
>>> of the rules. That is the case with any guy dog school. Just keep
>>> an open mind.
>>> Every school has good and bad things. Every school has someone who
>>> loves them and hates them. I'd recommend that you decide what breed
>>> you want, see what school meets your needs the best, and go forward
>>> from there.
>>>
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 12:18 PM, "Larry D. Keeler"
>>> <lkeeler at comcast.net
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> First, watch out for Fidelco! They have contract issues.
>>> Before
>>> you
>>> decide, make sure you read and understand the contract. The other
>>> thing, schools when possible do give you a choice. Now always can
>>> they accomidate but usually they can. I went to Pilot because I
>>> wanted a poodle. They breed them down there. However, I ended up
>>> qith a labradoodle wich is almost as good! As for training at school
>>> or at home, I think it would be more useful to train at hom. But,
>>> if you know your neighborhood, it doesn't matter as much.
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shickeytha Chandler"
>>> <shickeytha at gmail.com
>>> To: <nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 11:44 AM
>>> Subject: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>>
>>>
>>> Hello all,
>>>
>>> I am new to the list. I currently travel with a cane, but am very
>>> seriously considering getting a guide dog in the near future.
>>> I
>>> am
>>> doing research on guide dog schools to see which might be best for me.
>>> I am considering Fidelco, Guiding Eyes and the Seeing Eye.
>>> Does
>>> anyone
>>> on this list have either particularly positive or especially
>>> negative experiences with any of these schools? If so, I would be
>>> interested to hear your feedback. Also, I noticed that Fidelco does
>>> training at your residence, whereas the other schools bring you to
>>> their campuses for training. I would like to hear perspectives
>>> about the disadvantages and advantages of each of these methods of
>> training.
>>>
>>> Finally, I know that various types of dogs are trained as guides,
>>> ranging from labs to German Shepherds. I would like to know if
>>> schools give you a choice as to what type of dog you are paired with.
>>> Also, I
>>> would be interested to hear from anyone who has worked with dogs of
>>> various kinds; I'd like to know your thoughts as to whether there are
>>> distinct qualities that one breed possesses that another breed does
>>> not generally possess. Of course, I am sure all dogs are unique,
>>> even within a breed type.
>>>
>>> I know that is a lot of questions for one email. Thanks in advance
>>> for any insight that you can provide.
>>>
>>> Shickeytha
>>>
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>>> --
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>>> dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was
>>> vanity:
>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on
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>>> --
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