[nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
Larry D. Keeler
lkeeler at comcast.net
Sat Nov 2 17:32:45 UTC 2013
That is true but I still don't think a school has to tell you what happens
unless they want too. I aggree with the bonding thing but I don't aggree
that they have to tell you everything about the dog who has been returned.
It would be nice to do but lawfully it may be close to confidential.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hannah Chadwick" <sparklylicious at gmail.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2013 1:28 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
> Larry,
> I would have to disagree. I think that our bond with our dogs is one of
> the
> most amazing things, and although my previous dog didn't work out, I would
> have loved to know what happened to her. Despite her work performance, she
> was still a great dog and I felt our bond was pretty strong. I think that
> this is similar to puppy raisers in some ways. They raise a dog and that
> dog
> gets to go everywhere with those people, but after a while the dog goes
> back
> to the school. I hope I'm making sense :)
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry D. Keeler
> Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 9:34 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
>
> Well Nicole, if the dog has to go back for some reason, I don't think they
> have to tell you what happened to the dog. It would be nice if they did
> but
> my assumption would be that for some reason the dog, the person or both
> didn't work out. Many folks might even be wanting another guide.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Nicole Torcolini" <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 11:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
>
>
>> Raven hit the nail right on the head:
>> "Why would you bother to give someone a dog if you questioned their
>> ability to properly work and care for the animal?"
>> If the dog does not work out, then the handler should have some say in
>> what happens to the dog. Yes, I agree that the handler could be
>> encouraged to return the dog for evaluation for placement with someone
>> else if the dog is under a certain age, but the handler should then be
>> told what happens to the dog and also have the choice of taking the
>> dog back as a pet if it does not work out. Also, the flip side of this
>> is that, if the person plans to get another dog soon, keeping the
>> other dog as a pet may not be such a good idea because of jealousy and
>> confusion between the two dogs.
>> I think that the only two times that a school should be able to take a
>> dog is if the handler is abusing or neglecting the dog or if the dog
>> is very clearly not able to guide but the handler still insists on
>> working the dog.
>> In the case of neglect or abuse, I think that it should be some third
>> party that investigates and ultimately removes the dog so that there
>> is not any bias by the school. The second case, of course, is often
>> hard to define and is often misinterpreted by the schools.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Raven
>> Tolliver
>> Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 6:08 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
>>
>> Mike, schools cannot afford to give out pets. But the other side of
>> the coin is people unjustly having their guide dogs repossessed. I say
>> we push for the lesser of two evils, which is give full ownership upon
>> graduation, and risk giving out pets for the sake of guide dog
>> handlers not having dogs wrongfully repossessed.
>> I have heard of and seen several instances where a guide dog was
>> wrongfully repossessed. A buddy of mine had his guide dog repossessed
>> because she was having chronic ear infections under his care. For
>> three months, he communicated back and forth with the school to try to
>> straighten out the problem, but they wanted the dog back because they
>> did not want the reputation of issuing unhealthy dogs.
>> Now, that is just wrong on so many levels. Rather than work with him
>> to resolve the issue and keep his hardworking partner, they wanted to
>> cover their own ass. This shows a complete lack of trust, and it also
>> shows that they do not value their clients. An issue this minor is
>> something that can be resolved over time with a bit of research and
>> collaboration. But instead of concerning themselves with offering
>> guidance and assistance to a graduate, they were worried about their
>> own reputation!
>> Why would you bother to give someone a dog if you questioned their
>> ability to properly work and care for the animal? Perhaps schools
>> should do more to get to know potential clients and their lifestyles
>> before placing dogs with people. That is a better solution than giving
>> us dogs, then monitoring us like parents to make sure we're doing
>> everything according to the school's standards, and taking away dogs
>> when we make mistakes or are having problems.
>>
>> On 11/1/13, Julie J. <julielj at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>> I think ownership might encourage the school to do a better job of
>>> matching
>>>
>>> dogs. Also I'm thinking transferring ownership to the handler might
>>> get the
>>>
>>> school to do a very thorough job of investigating the student before
>>> giving
>>>
>>> them a dog. That should cut down on the number of people who aren't
>>> suited
>>>
>>> to a guide dog getting one in the first place.
>>>
>>> It would be interesting to compare schools with ownership to those
>>> who never
>>>
>>> give ownership to see the differences in these factors.
>>>
>>> Julie
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Mike
>>> Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 6:20 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
>>>
>>> A lot of time and money gets infested into producing a guide dog. Its
>>> silly
>>>
>>> to try and pressure companies into giving complete ownership to the
>> handler.
>>>
>>> If it doesn't work out in six months or a year or even two then,
>>> depending on reason, that dog could go back to the company and
>>> eventually go help someone else.
>>> Why turn such an investment into someone's pet when it could be so
>>> much more
>>>
>>> for someone else.
>>> I personally don't agree with the bill of rights. People should just
>>> understand their school of choice. Its not our decision. Its theirs
>>> as a business. If we as consumers don't like it then we have other
>>> schools to pick from.
>>> If i ran a school id probably do the same thing. Its protecting an
>>> investment and smaller schools cant afford to hand out pets.
>>> JMO
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 9:45 PM, "Michael Hingson"
>>>> <info at michaelhingson.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hannah,
>>>>
>>>> The problem is that what we define as full ownership is not what the
>>>> schools usually mean. The Seeing Eye is an organization that
>>>> provides ownership.
>>>>
>>>> I
>>>> am not as familiar with Pilot, but Chantel indicates that Pilot also
>>>> does give ownership.
>>>>
>>>> Other schools have different contracts that may or may not grant
>>>> full ownership, and that may require that if a guide retires within
>>>> some length of time the school may demand that the guide be returned
>>>> for retraining or for some other purpose. NAGDU has passed
>>>> resolutions calling on all schools to provide full ownership of
>>>> guide dogs upon graduation, and that same position is stated in
>>>> NAGDU's Guide Dog Consumer Bill of Rights. Most guide dog schools
>>>> are living in the past and are as a result paternalistic to one degree
> or another.
>>>> They do not see the tide of aware consumers which is turning against
>>>> them and which is demanding the same rights given to other citizens
>>>> in other training situations.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Michael Hingson
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Hannah
>>>> Chadwick
>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:22 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Subject: [nagdu] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
>>>>
>>>> Chantel,
>>>> Thank you for the correction.
>>>> Can someone please define complete ownership when it comes to guide
>>>> dogs?
>>>>
>>>> I
>>>> mean, if we get complete ownership, then doesn't that mean I'd get
>>>> to keep the dog no matter the age when that dog stops working? I'm
>>>> just curious since I was told that I had to send my dog back to the
>>>> school because she didn't work out but she was only 3.
>>>> Thank you, hannah
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chantel
>>>> Cuddemi
>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:08 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>>>
>>>> Hanna,
>>>>
>>>> Pilot Dogs gives us graduates full ownership of our dogs upon
>>>> graduation from the program.
>>>>
>>>> Hope that helped,
>>>>
>>>> Chantel and Motley of Pilot Dogs.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Hannah
>>>> Chadwick
>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:56 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>>>
>>>> Yes, GDB can provide more financial help if needed. I think that
>>>> larger schools tend to have more follow-up services because they
>>>> have more funds
>>>>
>>>> as
>>>> well as trainers. I don't think Pilot gives complete ownership, but
>>>> I could be wrong since that wasn't one of my concerns when I applied.
>>>> Pilot also trains boxers and Dobermans in addition to what Raven
>>>> mentioned.
>>>> On one hand I think that it is important to have a breed preference,
>>>> but on the other, I think it is the training that matters the most.
>>>> There are good things and bad things about every breed of dog. The
>>>> work you put in is what you will get out. The more effort you put
>>>> into your dog will mean more success with your team. When you get
>>>> your dog, please remember that the bonding process takes between 6
>>>> months and a year. As in my earlier email, please feel free to
>>>> email me off list if you want to know about Pilot or Guide Dogs for
>>>> the Blind.
>>>> Good luck, Hannah and Spritzie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: Raven Tolliver <ravend729 at gmail.com
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 19:39:50 -0400
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>> I attended Guiding Eyes for the Blind primarily because I wanted an
>>>> adult dog. As a person who never owned or handled a dog before, I
>>>> thought it important to have a dog that was physically and mentally
>>>> mature, and had established mannerisms. I wanted a golden
>>>> retriever, and goldens and German shepherds have a better work ethic as
> adults.
>>>> This has been proven in studies of guide dog programs and service
>>>> dog programs.
>>>> I also chose GEB because of the financial assistance. Students are
>>>> allotted $200 annually, and if your dog is 10 pounds within their
>>>> target weight, the student is given another $100. There is also an
>>>> emergency fund, but it can only be used once during a particular
>>>> dog's career. The GDB grads can correct me if I'm wrong, but I
>>>> think GDB gives more financial assistance than this. Grads from
>>>> that program can explain the logistics better.
>>>> As far as what breed of dog is best at guide work, that depends on
>>>> the person. I have always adored the gentle nature and laid-back
>>>> temperament
>>>>
>>>> of
>>>> a golden, and I would not want to live with the high energy and
>>>> quirkiness of a typical labrador. German shepherds are very serious
>>>> about their work, but they have high energy requirements.
>>>> All
>>>> three breeds are extremely loving, loyal and obedient if you bond
>>>> with them properly. All three breeds have double coats, so they
>>>> both shed a lot.
>>>> I
>>>> do not know as much about the other breeds put out by Pilot dogs,
>>>> but people have success with them, so you would have to ask the
>>>> handlers of poodles, dobermans, and Vieszlas.
>>>> You have to decide for yourself what you like or don't like in a dog.
>>>> And the personality is just as, if not more, important than breed.
>>>> Also, know that if you are picky about breed that it may take longer
>>>> to find you the right dog and get a class date. I was fortunate
>>>> that my golden was available so soon after I applied, but I knew
>>>> that being choosy might mean
>>>>
>>>> a
>>>> longer wait.
>>>> To determine which school might be right for you, you should rate
>>>> the following factors by importance to you.
>>>> location of school, home-training program, special needs program,
>>>> cost of the program, length of program, financial assistance, follow
>>>> up services, ownership policy, training methods, choice to meet and
>>>> keep in touch with your dog's puppy-raisers, graduation ceremony,
>>>> breeds offered, life stage
>>>>
>>>> of
>>>> dogs issued These are just what I can think of for now, but there
>>>> are more factors that others will bring to your attention.
>>>> If ownership is important to you, the Seeing Eye, Pilot Dogs, or
>>>> Guide Dogs of America are options. If you don't understand why
>>>> ownership is important to some people, then I will explain upon
>>>> request, because it is a very serious issue that every service dog
>>>> handler should have proper understanding of.
>>>> If home-training is important to you this is offered by Fidelco,
>>>> Guiding Eyes, and a couple other programs. Guiding Eyes usually
>>>> does home-training with returning graduates, but they have been
>>>> known to approve it for first time trainees.
>>>> I would encourage you to complete your training with your first
>>>> guide dog
>>>>
>>>> at
>>>> the school if it is at all possible and convenient for you. The
>>>> benefit is that you will not likely feel alone in the struggles you
>>>> will experience, and also, you can get great training and doggie
>>>> care tips from experienced guide dog handlers. In addition, you
>>>> could develop long standing relationships with other classmates,
>>>> which was a plus for me.
>>>> Good luck, and email me off list if you want to know more about my
>>>> Guiding Eyes experience.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 10/31/13, Shickeytha Chandler <shickeytha at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Thank you all for your responses. I have actually been leaning
>>>> toward a lab or a golden because I have heard in the past that
>>>> those types of dogs are very loyal and have an even temperament.
>>>> But at the same time, I want to have an open mind and consider what
>>>> other types of dogs might have to offer. By the way, I love the
>>>> names of all three of your dogs. Great dog names!
>>>>
>>>> On 10/31/13, minh ha <minh.ha927 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi Shickeytha,
>>>>
>>>> I want to echo what Hannah said in her email. I am working with my
>>>> first guide, Viva from Guide Dogs for the Blind on their Oregon
>>>> campus. As a college student, financial and post-graduation support
>>>> were the two most critical aspects that I was looking for in a guide
>>>> dog school. I felt like GDB provided both of these and I really
>>>> liked their positive training methods as well as the respectful way
>>>> they treat their handlers.
>>>> Regarding
>>>> the breed of dog, I think that ultimately needs to be your decision.
>>>> Each
>>>> individual has their preference and people are going to tell you
>>>> their choice is the best.
>>>> GDB only works with labs and golden retrievers. My girl is a lab
>>>> and I couldn't have asked for a better dog; she's extremely
>>>> energetic and playful, but she's an excellent worker once the harness
> goes on.
>>>>
>>>> Minh
>>>>
>>>> On 10/31/13, Chantel Cuddemi <jawsgirl87 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Welcome to the list!
>>>>
>>>> I am working my first dog from Pilot Dogs, a standard poodle named
>>>> Motley!
>>>>
>>>> We've been a team for a year and eight months.
>>>>
>>>> Good luck with what school you choose!
>>>>
>>>> Chantel and Motley.
>>>>
>>>> On 10/31/13, Hannah Chadwick <sparklylicious at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hey,
>>>> Welcome to the list. I'm working my second guide, Spritz. She is
>>>> from Guide Dogs for the Blind. She is a black lab; I got her over
>>>> the summer.
>>>> Since I'm a college student and having had a previous dog that was
>>>> very high-maintenance, I knew I would need financial assistance and
>>>> after support. Those were two of the major things I looked for
>>>> when I applied
>>>>
>>>> to
>>>> schools. The training methods (positive vs negative) used in
>>>> schools also mattered to me. Of course which may vary on an
>>>> individual and team basis, but I've come to realize that food
>>>> rewards go a long way. My first dog was from Pilot because I wanted
>>>> a poodle, but she retired after almost a year.
>>>> My training experience at Pilot was good, but I wasn't as
>>>> experienced so
>>>>
>>>> I
>>>> didn't have the necessary tools to manage such a high-strung dog.
>>>> Please
>>>> email me off-list if you have further questions.
>>>> Good luck with the application process and all that.
>>>> Best, Hannah and Spritz
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: Shickeytha Chandler <shickeytha at gmail.com
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 14:08:20 -0400
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>>>
>>>> No problem. I understand that different people have different
>>>> experiences and perspectives, and I think it is important to
>>>> consider both positive and negative. Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> On 10/31/13, Mike <blinkin4342 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> As a Fidelco client I completely disagree with the statement that
>>>> Fidelco has contract issues. The issues are definitely personal
>>>> and not Fidelco's fault.
>>>> I have had nothing but good experiences with Fidelco over the last
>>>> three years and I know a lot of people who feel the same way.
>>>> There are a certain handful of folks on this list who have personal
>>>> issues with Fidelco and tend to be much louder than the people who
>>>> have good experiences.
>>>> You should definitely read the contract to make sure you are aware
>>>> of the rules. That is the case with any guy dog school. Just keep
>>>> an open mind.
>>>> Every school has good and bad things. Every school has someone
>>>> who loves them and hates them. I'd recommend that you decide what
>>>> breed you want, see what school meets your needs the best, and go
>>>> forward from there.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 12:18 PM, "Larry D. Keeler"
>>>> <lkeeler at comcast.net
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> First, watch out for Fidelco! They have contract issues.
>>>> Before
>>>> you
>>>> decide, make sure you read and understand the contract. The other
>>>> thing, schools when possible do give you a choice. Now always can
>>>> they accomidate but usually they can. I went to Pilot because I
>>>> wanted a poodle. They breed them down there. However, I ended up
>>>> qith a labradoodle wich is almost as good! As for training at
>>>> school or at home, I think it would be more useful to train at hom.
>>>> But, if you know your neighborhood, it doesn't matter as much.
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shickeytha Chandler"
>>>> <shickeytha at gmail.com
>>>> To: <nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 11:44 AM
>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello all,
>>>>
>>>> I am new to the list. I currently travel with a cane, but am very
>>>> seriously considering getting a guide dog in the near future.
>>>> I
>>>> am
>>>> doing research on guide dog schools to see which might be best for
>>>> me.
>>>> I am considering Fidelco, Guiding Eyes and the Seeing Eye.
>>>> Does
>>>> anyone
>>>> on this list have either particularly positive or especially
>>>> negative experiences with any of these schools? If so, I would be
>>>> interested to hear your feedback. Also, I noticed that Fidelco
>>>> does training at your residence, whereas the other schools bring
>>>> you to their campuses for training. I would like to hear
>>>> perspectives about the disadvantages and advantages of each of
>>>> these methods of training.
>>>>
>>>> Finally, I know that various types of dogs are trained as guides,
>>>> ranging from labs to German Shepherds. I would like to know if
>>>> schools give you a choice as to what type of dog you are paired
>>>> with.
>>>> Also, I
>>>> would be interested to hear from anyone who has worked with dogs
>>>> of various kinds; I'd like to know your thoughts as to whether
>>>> there are distinct qualities that one breed possesses that another
>>>> breed does not generally possess. Of course, I am sure all dogs
>>>> are unique, even within a breed type.
>>>>
>>>> I know that is a lot of questions for one email. Thanks in
>>>> advance for any insight that you can provide.
>>>>
>>>> Shickeytha
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the
>>>> dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was
>>>> vanity:
>>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on
>>>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E.
>>>> Lawrence
>>>>
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>>>> --
>>>> Raven
>>>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Raven
>>
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