[nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools

National Association of Guide Dog Users blind411 at verizon.net
Sat Nov 2 17:51:59 UTC 2013


Tami,
	I would like to return to the conept of a gift. Even a gift does not
bind the recipient to the giver. Some programs seem to instill a sense of
gratitude for the gift, implying a perpetual sense of gratitude and, in
doing so, a perpetual sense of indebtedness and brand loyalty. Brand loyalty
is necessary for future stability; however, in the case of guide dog
training programs, I feel the brand loyalty preempts sound rational
thinking. 

	There is a concept in psychology known as cognitive distortions. One
such cognitive distortion is arbitrary inference, defined as "drawing
conclusions that are not supported by evidence or drawing conclusions that
are contrary to the evidence". The evidence shows that some training
programs act paternalistically and in an arbitrary manner, yet some
irrationally conclude that they are working in the best interest of their
consumers. 

Fraternally yours,
Marion Gwizdala



-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tami Jarvis
Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2013 1:06 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools

Shannon,

I think you've put your finger on why ownership and consumer rights are such
sensitive subjects. Each individual has to ultimately come to terms with how
they view the gift nature of the guide dog, how that affects the
relationship with the giver of the gift, or the dispenser of it, since the
programs are working for the actual donors. Because so many guide dog users
still face serious economic challenges due to blindness, many do need the
added assistance to maintain the dog, as in the vet stipends and so forth.

The follow up from the trainers is also often necessary to maintain the
working dog. Honestly, as an owner-trainer, I can simply deal with issues or
behaviors that need more work, which I see as a plus. But if I had a dog
from a program, I think I would be likely to request help from the dog's
trainer pretty readily. The person who trained the dog will have an insight
into the dog's learning style and training history that I wouldn't have
gotten when I received the fully trained dog. If that makes sense...

It's in the interest of the programs -- and I would assume also that of the
actual donors -- to ensure the dogs are maintained in good health and work
because they are walking advertisements, if you will. So then the ongoing
financial and/or time investment in the working dogs might be seen as
furthering the interests of the program as a whole as much as it is helping
the handler in need. That doesn't mean there is no concern for the welfare
of the handler and the dog involved, of course. But it's not the total gimme
it might seem.

I suppose the rub comes because of attitudes towards charity in general all
around, and how each party views its role in the process of giving and
receiving. With the training programs, there's also the fact that they are
not doing the giving. They are working for the givers. They are not working
for the end consumer. Technically, the end consumer is part of the finished
product, with the guide dog being the other part.

End consumers, being aware of the high value of the dog in addition to its
importance in their comings and goings, seem to have a wide variety of
expectations and attitudes towards their role in it all. Making individual
decisions based on one's own attitudes and expectations is one thing. Me, I
want ownership, so will factor that highly in any decision of which program
to apply to if and when I do. Others don't see it as important, so they
won't. The reasons we will all make our choices are as varied as we are. So
much discussion and argument when it comes to looking at the big picture of
how "we all" fit with "them all" and how we expect to be treated.

So discussions like this one are interesting to me because I've been
pondering the gift aspect of guide dog use recently and how that affects
attitudes in another area. How do people view themselves as recipients of a
guide dog? How does that view affect their approach to their rights and
responsibilities vs. the rights and responsibilities of others? I'm
wondering about one end of the spectrum and where the minority there is
coming from... I'll probably never figure it out, but insight from other
parts of the spectrum on subjects like this one are really interesting.

Tami

On 11/01/2013 09:43 PM, Shannon Dyer wrote:
> Hi, all.
>
> I've remained silent on this issue for some time now, but i have a
question. I really, really hope I don't bring anyone's wrath crashing down
on my head. This is a very sensitive issue, I know.
>
> Over the years, I've heard many conversations about ownership. I've heard
how paternalistic the schools are. I've heard how devalued we are made to
feel. I've heard about repossessed dogs, even though I've rarely heard both
sides of these stories. I've also heard how much help, both financial and
otherwise, we expect the schools to give us.
>
> So, I'm wondering how this works. How can we, on one hand, say we want
sole responsibility for our dogs, but, on the other hand, not hesitate to
take advantage of whatever vet stipend a training program might offer? How
can we expect the schools to hand the dogs over upon graduation, granting us
complete ownership, and then complain when we don't get the follow-up we
need when problems crop up? To me, it sounds like we're asking for it all,
and, if I've learned anything in life, it's that we simply can't have
everything we want.
>
> Please understand that I'm not saying there is anything wrong with wanting
to own your dog. I own my current guide, and Caroline before him. I'm also
not saying anything bad about wanting or receiving help from your school.
I'm just wondering how we can expect the schools to meet two sets of needs,
when they seem so very opposite.
>
> Shannon and the Acelet
> On Nov 2, 2013, at 12:23 AM, "Larry D. Keeler" <lkeeler at comcast.net>
wrote:
>
>> Right Marion! I've seen folks who feel so intimidated by the school 
>> they got there dog from that they won't even speak about it 
>> publically. I am currently talking to someone who feels that there 
>> school, Leader is going down hill and would like to possibly 
>> repossess her dog. I've met her dog. Not obese, quite clean and 
>> extremely socialized. I told her what I'm doing here and she really 
>> doesn't want to talk about it with me for fear that she'll get in 
>> trouble with the school. Noone should be afraid to challenge there 
>> school or feel bullied by folks who represent that or any other 
>> school. I've heard about a place in Arkansas where the staff 
>> constantly discouraged the students not to use there dogs and also 
>> continually threatened to report them for any reason and have there 
>> dogs removed. Whatever we feel about ownership, the folks who work at 
>> these institutions need to respect us as consumers. When I accidently 
>> opened this subject my point was really to explore each and every 
>> school
 co
ntract. If you can't aggree with it don't sign the thing! If you don't want
any unpleasant surprises make sure that you eliminate as many of them as
possible! I have been rather satisfied with Pilot. For the most part they
leave me alone and I leave them pretty much alone. Every couple of years, we
have a tech fair with visual aids and services as the focus. I talk with the
representive they send from Pilot and also from the other scchools. I only
got advised once by Pilots representative that I had Holly's collar on
backwards. I usually hang out with him and help advertise his school. I am
also aware that some folks haven't had the same experience that I had.
Striving to make things better for guide dog users, guide dogs and the
schools and owner-trainers is what we are supposed to be doing isn't it? Of
cours, we can do this by showing facts and logically discussing them without
bashing schools, dogs or folks. In the case of school contracts, do most
schools send a copy? Pilot did.
 I
 can't remember about the ownership part but I do remember the part about
returning used equipment.Well, I'm long winded enough so I'll blow out of
here and take Holly to our church function tommorrow. We are having a raffle
as part of our Knights council. Up here the green and blue are playing
against each other. Should I dye Holly green?
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "National Association of Guide Dog 
>> Users" <blind411 at verizon.net>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog 
>> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 10:19 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
>>
>>
>>> Tai,
>>> I would actually prefer to respond on-list, as I believe it is 
>>> important for consumers to be aware of such things. I have had a few 
>>> consumers from Leader tell me they were told that, if they did not 
>>> trim down their dogs they would be removed, even when the vet 
>>> asserted they were at a healthy weight. I also had a couple whose 
>>> harnesses were repossessed by Leader because an official from the 
>>> Florida Division of Blind Services complained that their dogs were 
>>> acting out aggressively. This official told Leader that the couple 
>>> had been expelled from the Orientation and Adjustment Center because 
>>> of their dogs' aggressive behavior, an assertion that was untrue. 
>>> Someone also filed a complaint with Leader that this couple were 
>>> neglecting their dogs, something that was investigated by the local 
>>> animal control. I spoke with the investigator from animal control 
>>> and he said there was no evidence of abuse or neglect and, in fact, 
>>> the dogs toenails were painted. In his words, "People who abuse or 
>>> neglect their dogs do not paint their nails!" In spite of the fact 
>>> that there was no objective evidence of abuse or neglect and that 
>>> the assertions of the DBS official were untrue, Leader repossessed their
harnesses. BTW, the DBS official was reprimanded by a demotion.
>>>
>>> I recently had a Southeastern consumer tell me that a trainer made a 
>>> surprise visit to him and, a day or two later called to tell him 
>>> that, if he did not slim down his dog, they would repossess it. 
>>> This, in spite of the ownership policy in place at SEGDI.
>>>
>>> Then, of course, there is the case I wrote about in the April 2011 
>>> issue of the Braille Monitor in which Fidelco repossessed a woman's 
>>> dog after she made several attempts to have a trainer help her with 
>>> some fear issues her dog was experiencing. I have had a number of 
>>> Fidelco consumers tell me about similar incidents, however, they 
>>> were unwilling to pursue them for fear of retribution. I have also 
>>> been told it is a common practice of Fidelco to call consumers and 
>>> tell them they are five minutes away and want to inspect their dogs. 
>>> If they object, they are reminded of the clauses in the agreement 
>>> that state, "I agree to allow Fidelco's representatives to inspect 
>>> the dog and to survey my care and treatment of the dog at any 
>>> reasonable time" and that violation of the agreement is cause for 
>>> repossession of the dog. I assume Fidelco believes five minutes 
>>> notice is "reasonable"! In my opinion, the Fidelco agreement speaks 
>>> for itself on this topic! As a law student, what would you say about 
>>> such an ownership agreement? I would say that it is ownership in 
>>> name only with none of the rights and privileges normally ascribed 
>>> to ownership! I would also say that, if one were to challenge 
>>> Fidelco's right to repossess a dog after transferring ownership, the
agreement would not stand the test of a legal challenge.
>>>
>>> Fraternally yours,
>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tai Blas
>>> Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 1:00 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
>>>
>>> Marion,
>>>
>>> Which schools have been known to arbitrarily interfere and repossess
dogs?
>>> If you'd prefer to respond to me off list, please do so at 
>>> taiablas at gmail.com
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> Tai
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of National 
>>> Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 11:42 AM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
>>>
>>> Mike,
>>>
>>> The issue is not one of "handing out pets" or "protecting an
investment".
>>> It is one of dignity, respect, and accountability. Ownership carries 
>>> with it certain privileges, among them the avoidance of arbitrary 
>>> interference by those who fail to recognize the ability of the 
>>> blind, believing their rights preempt those of the blind. No matter 
>>> how you dissect this issue, the unwillingness to transfer ownership 
>>> is founded in an archaic paternalistic attitude that cannot be justified
by any objective evidence.
>>>
>>> As Vice President Hingson stated and is our experience in light of 
>>> the numerous instances in which guide dogs have been removed without 
>>> cause, ownership is the only rational policy if one believes blind 
>>> people should be treated equitably with our sighted peers. Though 
>>> Fidelco asserts they transfer ownership after six months, their 
>>> agreement is far short of true ownership. Since when does a car 
>>> dealership have the right to repossess a dog at their sole and 
>>> absolute discretion. I know there are those who will argue that a 
>>> dog is diferent than a car; however, under the law, a dog is 
>>> property no different than a car, in spite of the fact that it is a 
>>> living breathing animal. In fact, following this argument to it 
>>> slogical end, how much more attached does one become to a living 
>>> being that offers unconcditional love an acceptance. After becoming 
>>> attached to such a being, should we not have the right to protect 
>>> ourselves from arbitrary, unjust interference from an organization that
will result in an emotional bond being broken without cause?
>>>
>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>
>>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
>>> National Federation of the Blind
>>> (813) 626-2789 (Office)
>>> 888-NAGDU411 (Hotline
>>> President at nagdu.org
>>> www.nagdu.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike
>>> Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 7:20 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
>>>
>>> A lot of time and money gets infested into producing a guide dog. 
>>> Its silly to try and pressure companies into giving complete ownership
to the handler.
>>> If it doesn't work out in six months or a year or even two then, 
>>> depending on reason, that dog could go back to the company and 
>>> eventually go help someone else.
>>> Why turn such an investment into someone's pet when it could be so 
>>> much more for someone else.
>>> I personally don't agree with the bill of rights. People should just 
>>> understand their school of choice. Its not our decision. Its theirs  
>>> as a business. If we as consumers don't like it then we have other 
>>> schools to pick from.
>>> If i ran a school id probably do the same thing. Its protecting an 
>>> investment and smaller schools cant afford to hand out pets.
>>> JMO
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 9:45 PM, "Michael Hingson"
>>>> <info at michaelhingson.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hannah,
>>>>
>>>> The problem is that what we define as full ownership is not what 
>>>> the schools usually mean.  The Seeing Eye is an organization that 
>>>> provides ownership. I am not as familiar with Pilot, but Chantel 
>>>> indicates that Pilot also does give ownership.
>>>>
>>>> Other schools have different contracts that may or may not grant 
>>>> full ownership, and that may require that if a guide retires within 
>>>> some length of time the school may demand that the guide be 
>>>> returned for retraining or for some other purpose.  NAGDU has 
>>>> passed resolutions calling on all schools to provide full ownership 
>>>> of guide dogs upon graduation, and that same position is stated in 
>>>> NAGDU's Guide Dog Consumer Bill of Rights.  Most guide dog schools 
>>>> are living in the past and are as a result paternalistic to one 
>>>> degree or another.  They do not see the tide of aware consumers 
>>>> which is turning against them and which is demanding the same 
>>>> rights given to other citizens in other
>>> training situations.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Michael Hingson
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Hannah 
>>>> Chadwick
>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:22 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Subject: [nagdu] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
>>>>
>>>> Chantel,
>>>> Thank you for the correction.
>>>> Can someone please define complete ownership when it comes to guide 
>>>> dogs? I mean, if we get complete ownership, then doesn't that mean 
>>>> I'd get to keep the dog no matter the age when that dog stops 
>>>> working? I'm just curious since I was told that I had to send my 
>>>> dog back to the school because she didn't work out but she was only 3.
>>>> Thank you, hannah
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chantel 
>>>> Cuddemi
>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:08 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>>>
>>>> Hanna,
>>>>
>>>> Pilot Dogs gives us graduates full ownership of our dogs upon 
>>>> graduation from the program.
>>>>
>>>> Hope that helped,
>>>>
>>>> Chantel and Motley of Pilot Dogs.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Hannah 
>>>> Chadwick
>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:56 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>>>
>>>> Yes, GDB can provide more financial help if needed.  I think that 
>>>> larger schools tend to have more follow-up services because they 
>>>> have more funds as well as trainers.  I don't think Pilot gives 
>>>> complete ownership, but I could be wrong since that wasn't one of 
>>>> my concerns when I applied.  Pilot also trains boxers and Dobermans 
>>>> in addition to
>>> what Raven mentioned.
>>>> On one hand I think that it is important to have a breed 
>>>> preference, but on the other, I think it is the training that matters
the most.
>>>> There are good things and bad things about every breed of dog.  The 
>>>> work you put in is what you will get out.  The more effort you put 
>>>> into your dog will mean more success with your team.  When you get 
>>>> your dog, please remember that the bonding process takes between 6 
>>>> months and a year.  As in my earlier email, please feel free to 
>>>> email me off list if you want to know about Pilot or Guide Dogs for the
Blind.
>>>> Good luck, Hannah and Spritzie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: Raven Tolliver <ravend729 at gmail.com
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 19:39:50 -0400
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>> I attended Guiding Eyes for the Blind primarily because I wanted an 
>>>> adult dog.  As a person who never owned or handled a dog before, I 
>>>> thought it important to have a dog that was physically and mentally 
>>>> mature, and had established mannerisms.  I wanted a golden 
>>>> retriever, and goldens and German shepherds have a better work ethic as
adults.
>>>> This has been proven in studies of guide dog programs and service 
>>>> dog programs.
>>>> I also chose GEB because of the financial assistance.  Students are 
>>>> allotted
>>>> $200 annually, and if your dog is 10 pounds within their target 
>>>> weight, the student is given another $100.  There is also an 
>>>> emergency fund, but it can only be used once during a particular dog's
career.
>>>> The GDB grads can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think GDB gives 
>>>> more financial assistance than this.  Grads from that program can 
>>>> explain the
>>> logistics better.
>>>> As far as what breed of dog is best at guide work, that depends on 
>>>> the person.  I have always adored the gentle nature and laid-back 
>>>> temperament of a golden, and I would not want to live with the high 
>>>> energy and quirkiness of a typical labrador.  German shepherds are 
>>>> very serious about their work, but they have high energy requirements.
>>>> All
>>>> three breeds are extremely loving, loyal and obedient if you bond 
>>>> with them properly.  All three breeds have double coats, so they 
>>>> both shed a lot.  I do not know as much about the other breeds put 
>>>> out by Pilot dogs, but people have success with them, so you would 
>>>> have to ask the handlers of poodles, dobermans, and Vieszlas.
>>>> You have to decide for yourself what you like or don't like in a dog.
>>>> And the personality is just as, if not more, important than breed.
>>>> Also, know that if you are picky about breed that it may take 
>>>> longer to find you the right dog and get a class date.  I was 
>>>> fortunate that my golden was available so soon after I applied, but 
>>>> I knew that being choosy might mean a longer wait.
>>>> To determine which school might be right for you, you should rate 
>>>> the following factors by importance  to you.
>>>> location of school, home-training program, special needs program, 
>>>> cost of the program, length of program, financial assistance, 
>>>> follow up services, ownership policy, training methods, choice to 
>>>> meet and keep in touch with your dog's puppy-raisers, graduation 
>>>> ceremony, breeds offered, life stage of dogs issued These are just 
>>>> what I can think of for now, but there are more factors that others 
>>>> will bring to your
>>> attention.
>>>> If ownership is important to you, the Seeing Eye, Pilot Dogs, or 
>>>> Guide Dogs of America are options.  If you don't understand why 
>>>> ownership is important to some people, then I will explain upon 
>>>> request, because it is a very serious issue that every service dog 
>>>> handler should have proper understanding of.
>>>> If home-training is important to you this is offered by Fidelco, 
>>>> Guiding Eyes, and a couple other programs.  Guiding Eyes usually 
>>>> does home-training with returning graduates, but they have been 
>>>> known to approve it for first time trainees.
>>>> I would encourage you to complete your training with your first 
>>>> guide dog at the school if it is at all possible and convenient for
you.
>>>> The benefit is that you will not likely feel alone in the struggles 
>>>> you will experience, and also, you can get great training and 
>>>> doggie care tips from experienced guide dog handlers.  In addition, 
>>>> you could develop long standing relationships with other 
>>>> classmates, which was a
>>> plus for me.
>>>> Good luck, and email me off list if you want to know more about my 
>>>> Guiding Eyes experience.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 10/31/13, Shickeytha Chandler <shickeytha at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Thank you all for your responses.  I have actually been leaning 
>>>> toward a lab or a golden because I have heard in the past that 
>>>> those types of dogs are very loyal and have an even temperament.  
>>>> But at the same time, I want to have an open mind and consider what 
>>>> other types of dogs might have to offer.  By the way, I love the 
>>>> names of all three of  your dogs.  Great dog names!
>>>>
>>>> On 10/31/13, minh ha <minh.ha927 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi Shickeytha,
>>>>
>>>> I want to echo what Hannah said in her email.  I am working with my 
>>>> first guide, Viva from Guide Dogs for the Blind on their Oregon 
>>>> campus.  As a college student, financial and post-graduation 
>>>> support were the two most critical aspects that I was looking for 
>>>> in a guide dog school.  I felt like GDB provided both of these and 
>>>> I really liked their positive training methods as well as the 
>>>> respectful way they treat their handlers.  Regarding the breed of 
>>>> dog, I think that ultimately needs to be your decision.  Each 
>>>> individual has their preference and people are going to tell you their
choice is the best.
>>>> GDB only works with labs and golden retrievers.  My girl is a lab 
>>>> and I couldn't have asked for a better dog; she's extremely 
>>>> energetic and playful, but she's an excellent worker once the harness
goes on.
>>>>
>>>> Minh
>>>>
>>>> On 10/31/13, Chantel Cuddemi <jawsgirl87 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Welcome to the  list!
>>>>
>>>> I am working my first dog from Pilot Dogs, a standard poodle named
>>> Motley!
>>>>
>>>> We've been a team for a year and eight months.
>>>>
>>>> Good luck with what school you choose!
>>>>
>>>> Chantel and Motley.
>>>>
>>>> On 10/31/13, Hannah Chadwick <sparklylicious at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hey,
>>>> Welcome to the list.  I'm working my second guide, Spritz.  She  is 
>>>> from Guide Dogs for the Blind.  She is a black lab; I got her  over 
>>>> the
>>> summer.
>>>> Since I'm a college student and having had a previous dog that  was 
>>>> very high-maintenance, I knew I would need financial  assistance 
>>>> and after support.  Those were two of the major things  I looked 
>>>> for when I applied to schools.  The training methods  (positive vs 
>>>> negative) used in schools also mattered to me.  Of  course which 
>>>> may vary on an individual and team basis, but I've  come to realize 
>>>> that food rewards go a long way.  My first dog was from Pilot 
>>>> because I wanted a poodle, but
>>> she retired after  almost a year.
>>>> My training experience at Pilot was good, but I  wasn't as 
>>>> experienced so I didn't have the necessary tools to  manage such a 
>>>> high-strung dog.  Please email me off-list if you  have further
questions.
>>>> Good luck with the application process  and all that.
>>>> Best, Hannah and Spritz
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: Shickeytha Chandler <shickeytha at gmail.com
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog  Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org  Date sent: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 14:08:20 -0400
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>>>
>>>> No problem.  I understand that different people have different 
>>>> experiences and perspectives, and I think it is important to  
>>>> consider both positive and negative.  Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> On 10/31/13, Mike <blinkin4342 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> As a Fidelco client I completely disagree with the statement  that 
>>>> Fidelco  has contract issues.  The issues are definitely personal 
>>>> and not Fidelco's  fault.
>>>> I have had nothing but good experiences with Fidelco over the  last 
>>>> three  years and I know a lot of people who feel the same way.  
>>>> There are a certain  handful of folks on this list who have 
>>>> personal issues with  Fidelco and tend  to be much louder than the 
>>>> people who have good experiences.
>>>> You should definitely read the contract to make sure you are  aware 
>>>> of the  rules.  That is the case with any guy dog school.  Just 
>>>> keep an  open mind.
>>>> Every school has good and bad things.  Every school has someone  
>>>> who loves  them and hates them.  I'd recommend that you decide what 
>>>> breed you want, see  what school meets your needs the best, and go 
>>>> forward from  there.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 12:18 PM, "Larry D.  Keeler"
>>>> <lkeeler at comcast.net
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> First, watch out for Fidelco! They have contract issues.
>>>> Before
>>>> you
>>>> decide, make sure you read and understand the contract.  The  other 
>>>> thing,  schools when possible do give you a choice.  Now always can 
>>>> they accomidate  but usually they can.  I went to Pilot because I 
>>>> wanted a  poodle.  They  breed them down there.  However, I ended 
>>>> up qith a labradoodle  wich is  almost as good! As for training at 
>>>> school or at home, I think it  would be  more useful to train at 
>>>> hom.  But, if you know your  neighborhood, it  doesn't matter as much.
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shickeytha Chandler"
>>>> <shickeytha at gmail.com
>>>> To: <nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 11:44 AM
>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello all,
>>>>
>>>> I am new to the list.  I currently travel with a cane, but am  very 
>>>> seriously considering getting a guide dog in the near future.
>>>> I
>>>> am
>>>> doing research on guide dog schools to see which might be best  for me.
>>>> I am considering Fidelco, Guiding Eyes and the Seeing Eye.
>>>> Does
>>>> anyone
>>>> on this list have either particularly positive or especially 
>>>> negative experiences with any of these schools? If so, I would be 
>>>> interested to hear your feedback.  Also, I noticed that Fidelco 
>>>> does training  at your  residence, whereas the other schools bring 
>>>> you to their campuses for  training.  I would like to hear 
>>>> perspectives about the disadvantages  and advantages of each of 
>>>> these methods of
>>> training.
>>>>
>>>> Finally, I know that various types of dogs are trained as  guides, 
>>>> ranging from labs to German Shepherds.  I would like to know if 
>>>> schools  give you a choice as to what type of dog you are paired with.
>>>> Also, I
>>>> would be interested to hear from anyone who has worked with dogs  
>>>> of various kinds; I'd like to know your thoughts as to whether  
>>>> there are distinct qualities that one breed possesses that another 
>>>> breed  does not generally possess.  Of course, I am sure all dogs 
>>>> are  unique, even  within a breed type.
>>>>
>>>> I know that is a lot of questions for one email.  Thanks in  
>>>> advance for  any insight that you can provide.
>>>>
>>>> Shickeytha
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> "All men dream, but not equally.  Those who dream by night in the 
>>>> dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was
>>>> vanity:
>>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on 
>>>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T.  E.
>>>> Lawrence
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Raven
>>>>
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