[nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
Larry D. Keeler
lkeeler at comcast.net
Sun Nov 3 00:53:11 UTC 2013
I aggree! I'm just noting that that they don't have to do that by law!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hannah Chadwick" <sparklylicious at gmail.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2013 2:12 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
> Larry,
> No, I'm not asking them to tell me everything. I would really like to know
> what happened to that dog, if she's happy, living a fulfilling life, etc.
> I
> t would be amazing if her new handler or whatever could have a way to
> contact the previous owner if he/she so wishes. One of the greatest things
> for me is to have the opportunity to be in contact with my puppy raiser
> because it helps all of us stay connected regarding my dog. I guess I see
> it
> as a way to get more advice from someone who knows my dog well.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry D. Keeler
> Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2013 10:33 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
>
> That is true but I still don't think a school has to tell you what happens
> unless they want too. I aggree with the bonding thing but I don't aggree
> that they have to tell you everything about the dog who has been returned.
> It would be nice to do but lawfully it may be close to confidential.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Hannah Chadwick" <sparklylicious at gmail.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2013 1:28 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
>
>
>> Larry,
>> I would have to disagree. I think that our bond with our dogs is one
>> of the most amazing things, and although my previous dog didn't work
>> out, I would have loved to know what happened to her. Despite her work
>> performance, she was still a great dog and I felt our bond was pretty
>> strong. I think that this is similar to puppy raisers in some ways.
>> They raise a dog and that dog gets to go everywhere with those people,
>> but after a while the dog goes back to the school. I hope I'm making
>> sense :)
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry D.
>> Keeler
>> Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 9:34 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
>>
>> Well Nicole, if the dog has to go back for some reason, I don't think
>> they have to tell you what happened to the dog. It would be nice if
>> they did but my assumption would be that for some reason the dog, the
>> person or both didn't work out. Many folks might even be wanting
>> another guide.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Nicole Torcolini" <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 11:06 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
>>
>>
>>> Raven hit the nail right on the head:
>>> "Why would you bother to give someone a dog if you questioned their
>>> ability to properly work and care for the animal?"
>>> If the dog does not work out, then the handler should have some say
>>> in what happens to the dog. Yes, I agree that the handler could be
>>> encouraged to return the dog for evaluation for placement with
>>> someone else if the dog is under a certain age, but the handler
>>> should then be told what happens to the dog and also have the choice
>>> of taking the dog back as a pet if it does not work out. Also, the
>>> flip side of this is that, if the person plans to get another dog
>>> soon, keeping the other dog as a pet may not be such a good idea
>>> because of jealousy and confusion between the two dogs.
>>> I think that the only two times that a school should be able to take
>>> a dog is if the handler is abusing or neglecting the dog or if the
>>> dog is very clearly not able to guide but the handler still insists
>>> on working the dog.
>>> In the case of neglect or abuse, I think that it should be some third
>>> party that investigates and ultimately removes the dog so that there
>>> is not any bias by the school. The second case, of course, is often
>>> hard to define and is often misinterpreted by the schools.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Raven
>>> Tolliver
>>> Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 6:08 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
>>>
>>> Mike, schools cannot afford to give out pets. But the other side of
>>> the coin is people unjustly having their guide dogs repossessed. I
>>> say we push for the lesser of two evils, which is give full ownership
>>> upon graduation, and risk giving out pets for the sake of guide dog
>>> handlers not having dogs wrongfully repossessed.
>>> I have heard of and seen several instances where a guide dog was
>>> wrongfully repossessed. A buddy of mine had his guide dog repossessed
>>> because she was having chronic ear infections under his care. For
>>> three months, he communicated back and forth with the school to try
>>> to straighten out the problem, but they wanted the dog back because
>>> they did not want the reputation of issuing unhealthy dogs.
>>> Now, that is just wrong on so many levels. Rather than work with him
>>> to resolve the issue and keep his hardworking partner, they wanted to
>>> cover their own ass. This shows a complete lack of trust, and it also
>>> shows that they do not value their clients. An issue this minor is
>>> something that can be resolved over time with a bit of research and
>>> collaboration. But instead of concerning themselves with offering
>>> guidance and assistance to a graduate, they were worried about their
>>> own reputation!
>>> Why would you bother to give someone a dog if you questioned their
>>> ability to properly work and care for the animal? Perhaps schools
>>> should do more to get to know potential clients and their lifestyles
>>> before placing dogs with people. That is a better solution than
>>> giving us dogs, then monitoring us like parents to make sure we're
>>> doing everything according to the school's standards, and taking away
>>> dogs when we make mistakes or are having problems.
>>>
>>> On 11/1/13, Julie J. <julielj at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> I think ownership might encourage the school to do a better job of
>>>> matching
>>>>
>>>> dogs. Also I'm thinking transferring ownership to the handler might
>>>> get the
>>>>
>>>> school to do a very thorough job of investigating the student before
>>>> giving
>>>>
>>>> them a dog. That should cut down on the number of people who aren't
>>>> suited
>>>>
>>>> to a guide dog getting one in the first place.
>>>>
>>>> It would be interesting to compare schools with ownership to those
>>>> who never
>>>>
>>>> give ownership to see the differences in these factors.
>>>>
>>>> Julie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Mike
>>>> Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 6:20 AM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
>>>>
>>>> A lot of time and money gets infested into producing a guide dog.
>>>> Its silly
>>>>
>>>> to try and pressure companies into giving complete ownership to the
>>> handler.
>>>>
>>>> If it doesn't work out in six months or a year or even two then,
>>>> depending on reason, that dog could go back to the company and
>>>> eventually go help someone else.
>>>> Why turn such an investment into someone's pet when it could be so
>>>> much more
>>>>
>>>> for someone else.
>>>> I personally don't agree with the bill of rights. People should just
>>>> understand their school of choice. Its not our decision. Its theirs
>>>> as a business. If we as consumers don't like it then we have other
>>>> schools to pick from.
>>>> If i ran a school id probably do the same thing. Its protecting an
>>>> investment and smaller schools cant afford to hand out pets.
>>>> JMO
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 9:45 PM, "Michael Hingson"
>>>>> <info at michaelhingson.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hannah,
>>>>>
>>>>> The problem is that what we define as full ownership is not what
>>>>> the schools usually mean. The Seeing Eye is an organization that
>>>>> provides ownership.
>>>>>
>>>>> I
>>>>> am not as familiar with Pilot, but Chantel indicates that Pilot
>>>>> also does give ownership.
>>>>>
>>>>> Other schools have different contracts that may or may not grant
>>>>> full ownership, and that may require that if a guide retires within
>>>>> some length of time the school may demand that the guide be
>>>>> returned for retraining or for some other purpose. NAGDU has
>>>>> passed resolutions calling on all schools to provide full ownership
>>>>> of guide dogs upon graduation, and that same position is stated in
>>>>> NAGDU's Guide Dog Consumer Bill of Rights. Most guide dog schools
>>>>> are living in the past and are as a result paternalistic to one
>>>>> degree
>> or another.
>>>>> They do not see the tide of aware consumers which is turning
>>>>> against them and which is demanding the same rights given to other
>>>>> citizens in other training situations.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael Hingson
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Hannah
>>>>> Chadwick
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:22 PM
>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
>>>>>
>>>>> Chantel,
>>>>> Thank you for the correction.
>>>>> Can someone please define complete ownership when it comes to guide
>>>>> dogs?
>>>>>
>>>>> I
>>>>> mean, if we get complete ownership, then doesn't that mean I'd get
>>>>> to keep the dog no matter the age when that dog stops working? I'm
>>>>> just curious since I was told that I had to send my dog back to the
>>>>> school because she didn't work out but she was only 3.
>>>>> Thank you, hannah
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chantel
>>>>> Cuddemi
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:08 PM
>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>>>>
>>>>> Hanna,
>>>>>
>>>>> Pilot Dogs gives us graduates full ownership of our dogs upon
>>>>> graduation from the program.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hope that helped,
>>>>>
>>>>> Chantel and Motley of Pilot Dogs.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Hannah
>>>>> Chadwick
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:56 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, GDB can provide more financial help if needed. I think that
>>>>> larger schools tend to have more follow-up services because they
>>>>> have more funds
>>>>>
>>>>> as
>>>>> well as trainers. I don't think Pilot gives complete ownership,
>>>>> but I could be wrong since that wasn't one of my concerns when I
> applied.
>>>>> Pilot also trains boxers and Dobermans in addition to what Raven
>>>>> mentioned.
>>>>> On one hand I think that it is important to have a breed
>>>>> preference, but on the other, I think it is the training that matters
> the most.
>>>>> There are good things and bad things about every breed of dog. The
>>>>> work you put in is what you will get out. The more effort you put
>>>>> into your dog will mean more success with your team. When you get
>>>>> your dog, please remember that the bonding process takes between 6
>>>>> months and a year. As in my earlier email, please feel free to
>>>>> email me off list if you want to know about Pilot or Guide Dogs for
>>>>> the Blind.
>>>>> Good luck, Hannah and Spritzie
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: Raven Tolliver <ravend729 at gmail.com
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 19:39:50 -0400
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>> I attended Guiding Eyes for the Blind primarily because I wanted an
>>>>> adult dog. As a person who never owned or handled a dog before, I
>>>>> thought it important to have a dog that was physically and mentally
>>>>> mature, and had established mannerisms. I wanted a golden
>>>>> retriever, and goldens and German shepherds have a better work
>>>>> ethic as
>> adults.
>>>>> This has been proven in studies of guide dog programs and service
>>>>> dog programs.
>>>>> I also chose GEB because of the financial assistance. Students are
>>>>> allotted $200 annually, and if your dog is 10 pounds within their
>>>>> target weight, the student is given another $100. There is also an
>>>>> emergency fund, but it can only be used once during a particular
>>>>> dog's career. The GDB grads can correct me if I'm wrong, but I
>>>>> think GDB gives more financial assistance than this. Grads from
>>>>> that program can explain the logistics better.
>>>>> As far as what breed of dog is best at guide work, that depends on
>>>>> the person. I have always adored the gentle nature and laid-back
>>>>> temperament
>>>>>
>>>>> of
>>>>> a golden, and I would not want to live with the high energy and
>>>>> quirkiness of a typical labrador. German shepherds are very
>>>>> serious about their work, but they have high energy requirements.
>>>>> All
>>>>> three breeds are extremely loving, loyal and obedient if you bond
>>>>> with them properly. All three breeds have double coats, so they
>>>>> both shed a lot.
>>>>> I
>>>>> do not know as much about the other breeds put out by Pilot dogs,
>>>>> but people have success with them, so you would have to ask the
>>>>> handlers of poodles, dobermans, and Vieszlas.
>>>>> You have to decide for yourself what you like or don't like in a dog.
>>>>> And the personality is just as, if not more, important than breed.
>>>>> Also, know that if you are picky about breed that it may take
>>>>> longer to find you the right dog and get a class date. I was
>>>>> fortunate that my golden was available so soon after I applied, but
>>>>> I knew that being choosy might mean
>>>>>
>>>>> a
>>>>> longer wait.
>>>>> To determine which school might be right for you, you should rate
>>>>> the following factors by importance to you.
>>>>> location of school, home-training program, special needs program,
>>>>> cost of the program, length of program, financial assistance,
>>>>> follow up services, ownership policy, training methods, choice to
>>>>> meet and keep in touch with your dog's puppy-raisers, graduation
>>>>> ceremony, breeds offered, life stage
>>>>>
>>>>> of
>>>>> dogs issued These are just what I can think of for now, but there
>>>>> are more factors that others will bring to your attention.
>>>>> If ownership is important to you, the Seeing Eye, Pilot Dogs, or
>>>>> Guide Dogs of America are options. If you don't understand why
>>>>> ownership is important to some people, then I will explain upon
>>>>> request, because it is a very serious issue that every service dog
>>>>> handler should have proper understanding of.
>>>>> If home-training is important to you this is offered by Fidelco,
>>>>> Guiding Eyes, and a couple other programs. Guiding Eyes usually
>>>>> does home-training with returning graduates, but they have been
>>>>> known to approve it for first time trainees.
>>>>> I would encourage you to complete your training with your first
>>>>> guide dog
>>>>>
>>>>> at
>>>>> the school if it is at all possible and convenient for you. The
>>>>> benefit is that you will not likely feel alone in the struggles you
>>>>> will experience, and also, you can get great training and doggie
>>>>> care tips from experienced guide dog handlers. In addition, you
>>>>> could develop long standing relationships with other classmates,
>>>>> which was a plus for me.
>>>>> Good luck, and email me off list if you want to know more about my
>>>>> Guiding Eyes experience.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/31/13, Shickeytha Chandler <shickeytha at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Thank you all for your responses. I have actually been leaning
>>>>> toward a lab or a golden because I have heard in the past that
>>>>> those types of dogs are very loyal and have an even temperament.
>>>>> But at the same time, I want to have an open mind and consider
>>>>> what other types of dogs might have to offer. By the way, I love
>>>>> the names of all three of your dogs. Great dog names!
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/31/13, minh ha <minh.ha927 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hi Shickeytha,
>>>>>
>>>>> I want to echo what Hannah said in her email. I am working with my
>>>>> first guide, Viva from Guide Dogs for the Blind on their Oregon
>>>>> campus. As a college student, financial and post-graduation
>>>>> support were the two most critical aspects that I was looking for
>>>>> in a guide dog school. I felt like GDB provided both of these and
>>>>> I really liked their positive training methods as well as the
>>>>> respectful way they treat their handlers.
>>>>> Regarding
>>>>> the breed of dog, I think that ultimately needs to be your decision.
>>>>> Each
>>>>> individual has their preference and people are going to tell you
>>>>> their choice is the best.
>>>>> GDB only works with labs and golden retrievers. My girl is a lab
>>>>> and I couldn't have asked for a better dog; she's extremely
>>>>> energetic and playful, but she's an excellent worker once the
>>>>> harness
>> goes on.
>>>>>
>>>>> Minh
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/31/13, Chantel Cuddemi <jawsgirl87 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Welcome to the list!
>>>>>
>>>>> I am working my first dog from Pilot Dogs, a standard poodle named
>>>>> Motley!
>>>>>
>>>>> We've been a team for a year and eight months.
>>>>>
>>>>> Good luck with what school you choose!
>>>>>
>>>>> Chantel and Motley.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/31/13, Hannah Chadwick <sparklylicious at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hey,
>>>>> Welcome to the list. I'm working my second guide, Spritz. She is
>>>>> from Guide Dogs for the Blind. She is a black lab; I got her over
>>>>> the summer.
>>>>> Since I'm a college student and having had a previous dog that was
>>>>> very high-maintenance, I knew I would need financial assistance
>>>>> and after support. Those were two of the major things I looked
>>>>> for when I applied
>>>>>
>>>>> to
>>>>> schools. The training methods (positive vs negative) used in
>>>>> schools also mattered to me. Of course which may vary on an
>>>>> individual and team basis, but I've come to realize that food
>>>>> rewards go a long way. My first dog was from Pilot because I
>>>>> wanted a poodle, but she retired after almost a year.
>>>>> My training experience at Pilot was good, but I wasn't as
>>>>> experienced so
>>>>>
>>>>> I
>>>>> didn't have the necessary tools to manage such a high-strung dog.
>>>>> Please
>>>>> email me off-list if you have further questions.
>>>>> Good luck with the application process and all that.
>>>>> Best, Hannah and Spritz
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: Shickeytha Chandler <shickeytha at gmail.com
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 14:08:20 -0400
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>>>>
>>>>> No problem. I understand that different people have different
>>>>> experiences and perspectives, and I think it is important to
>>>>> consider both positive and negative. Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/31/13, Mike <blinkin4342 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> As a Fidelco client I completely disagree with the statement that
>>>>> Fidelco has contract issues. The issues are definitely personal
>>>>> and not Fidelco's fault.
>>>>> I have had nothing but good experiences with Fidelco over the
>>>>> last three years and I know a lot of people who feel the same way.
>>>>> There are a certain handful of folks on this list who have
>>>>> personal issues with Fidelco and tend to be much louder than the
>>>>> people who have good experiences.
>>>>> You should definitely read the contract to make sure you are
>>>>> aware of the rules. That is the case with any guy dog school.
>>>>> Just keep an open mind.
>>>>> Every school has good and bad things. Every school has someone
>>>>> who loves them and hates them. I'd recommend that you decide what
>>>>> breed you want, see what school meets your needs the best, and go
>>>>> forward from there.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 12:18 PM, "Larry D. Keeler"
>>>>> <lkeeler at comcast.net
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> First, watch out for Fidelco! They have contract issues.
>>>>> Before
>>>>> you
>>>>> decide, make sure you read and understand the contract. The
>>>>> other thing, schools when possible do give you a choice. Now
>>>>> always can they accomidate but usually they can. I went to Pilot
>>>>> because I wanted a poodle. They breed them down there. However,
>>>>> I ended up qith a labradoodle wich is almost as good! As for
>>>>> training at school or at home, I think it would be more useful to
> train at hom.
>>>>> But, if you know your neighborhood, it doesn't matter as much.
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shickeytha Chandler"
>>>>> <shickeytha at gmail.com
>>>>> To: <nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 11:44 AM
>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>>
>>>>> I am new to the list. I currently travel with a cane, but am
>>>>> very seriously considering getting a guide dog in the near future.
>>>>> I
>>>>> am
>>>>> doing research on guide dog schools to see which might be best
>>>>> for me.
>>>>> I am considering Fidelco, Guiding Eyes and the Seeing Eye.
>>>>> Does
>>>>> anyone
>>>>> on this list have either particularly positive or especially
>>>>> negative experiences with any of these schools? If so, I would be
>>>>> interested to hear your feedback. Also, I noticed that Fidelco
>>>>> does training at your residence, whereas the other schools bring
>>>>> you to their campuses for training. I would like to hear
>>>>> perspectives about the disadvantages and advantages of each of
>>>>> these methods of training.
>>>>>
>>>>> Finally, I know that various types of dogs are trained as guides,
>>>>> ranging from labs to German Shepherds. I would like to know if
>>>>> schools give you a choice as to what type of dog you are paired
>>>>> with.
>>>>> Also, I
>>>>> would be interested to hear from anyone who has worked with dogs
>>>>> of various kinds; I'd like to know your thoughts as to whether
>>>>> there are distinct qualities that one breed possesses that another
>>>>> breed does not generally possess. Of course, I am sure all dogs
>>>>> are unique, even within a breed type.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know that is a lot of questions for one email. Thanks in
>>>>> advance for any insight that you can provide.
>>>>>
>>>>> Shickeytha
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the
>>>>> dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was
>>>>> vanity:
>>>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on
>>>>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E.
>>>>> Lawrence
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Raven
>>>>>
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