[nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
Larry D. Keeler
lkeeler at comcast.net
Sun Nov 3 01:21:53 UTC 2013
Pilot has that one! That is the reason I take Holly out of harrness when we
do the M I drive with the Knights. You're right though. I worry a little
because I'm not using her for the purpose direcctly, it could be construed
as such.
----- Original Message -----
From: "National Association of Guide Dog Users" <blind411 at verizon.net>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2013 7:22 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
> Dear All,
> Another issue I have with some of the agreements is the clause many
> have that I will not use my dog for begging. Now, I am a professional
> musician and sometimes I perform on the street during festivals for tips.
> Some programs may view this as begging and may attempt to prohibit me from
> exercising the practice of my profession.
>
> Marion Gwizdala
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole
> Torcolini
> Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2013 2:59 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
>
> Hmm, I am going to take a swing at this one. I don't mind comments, but
> please don't jump on me for it.
>
> In a simplified view of the situation, a guide dog is a product that is
> provided by a particular entity. Often, when you receive a product,
> whether
> it is purchased or given, it comes with a warranty, which usually includes
> a
> trial period during which you can exchange it for another and a longer
> warranty. The trial period is analogous to the time during which the
> school
> asks that you return the dog if it has to be retired. No, this comparison
> does not exactly hold, but, usually, when you exchange a product during
> the
> trial period, you don't get to keep the one that did not work, especially
> if
> it can be used by someone else. The rest of the warranty is analogous to
> the
> graduation services that we receive. Just like different companies have
> different warranties, different schools are going to have different
> services. Like most warranties that say that the warranty is void if you
> do
> x, y, or z, we are expected to do/not do certain things in order to
> receive
> the services. However, some of the things that they ask us do to are
> unreasonable. Have you ever signed a warranty on something that said that
> the company that made it would spontaneously drop out of the sky to
> inspect
> it and/or take it away from you without do cause?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray
> Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2013 4:28 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
>
> I am afraid I would have to agree with this thought and ask the same
> question. I have wondered about that myself. Maybe there is a rationale
> that
> I don't get. TSE does not give assistance. I think in some rare situations
> they do or especially in the first year if something really serious comes
> along because in a way that dog is still "under warranty." That's why if
> you
> have to return in that time and replace the dog it is not considered a new
> dog but an adjustment. I understand that there are people with financial
> considerations, and there needs to be a means by which they receive help
> that is needed, but I would wonder about some of these expectations. Now,
> as
> far as not living up to a contract and surprise visits--that is wrong no
> matter what. I think if you need follow up, really need it, that is
> important, too. I don't ask for it unless I am desperate almost, which may
> not be good, but it is often easy to receive it over the phone if it is
> sought soon enough. I think that ownership is very important; your heart
> owns the dog anyway; but what do we expect as a part of that ownership?
>
> Cindy Lou
>
> On Nov 1, 2013, at 11:43 PM, Shannon Dyer <solsticesinger at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi, all.
>>
>> I've remained silent on this issue for some time now, but i have a
> question. I really, really hope I don't bring anyone's wrath crashing down
> on my head. This is a very sensitive issue, I know.
>>
>> Over the years, I've heard many conversations about ownership. I've
>> heard
> how paternalistic the schools are. I've heard how devalued we are made to
> feel. I've heard about repossessed dogs, even though I've rarely heard
> both
> sides of these stories. I've also heard how much help, both financial and
> otherwise, we expect the schools to give us.
>>
>> So, I'm wondering how this works. How can we, on one hand, say we want
> sole responsibility for our dogs, but, on the other hand, not hesitate to
> take advantage of whatever vet stipend a training program might offer? How
> can we expect the schools to hand the dogs over upon graduation, granting
> us
> complete ownership, and then complain when we don't get the follow-up we
> need when problems crop up? To me, it sounds like we're asking for it all,
> and, if I've learned anything in life, it's that we simply can't have
> everything we want.
>>
>> Please understand that I'm not saying there is anything wrong with
>> wanting
> to own your dog. I own my current guide, and Caroline before him. I'm also
> not saying anything bad about wanting or receiving help from your school.
> I'm just wondering how we can expect the schools to meet two sets of
> needs,
> when they seem so very opposite.
>>
>> Shannon and the Acelet
>> On Nov 2, 2013, at 12:23 AM, "Larry D. Keeler" <lkeeler at comcast.net>
> wrote:
>>
>>> Right Marion! I've seen folks who feel so intimidated by the school
>>> they
> got there dog from that they won't even speak about it publically. I am
> currently talking to someone who feels that there school, Leader is going
> down hill and would like to possibly repossess her dog. I've met her dog.
> Not obese, quite clean and extremely socialized. I told her what I'm doing
> here and she really doesn't want to talk about it with me for fear that
> she'll get in trouble with the school. Noone should be afraid to challenge
> there school or feel bullied by folks who represent that or any other
> school. I've heard about a place in Arkansas where the staff constantly
> discouraged the students not to use there dogs and also continually
> threatened to report them for any reason and have there dogs removed.
> Whatever we feel about ownership, the folks who work at these institutions
> need to respect us as consumers. When I accidently opened this subject my
> point was really to explore each and every school contract. If you can't
> aggree with it don't sign the thing! If you don't want any unpleasant
> surprises make sure that you eliminate as many of them as possible! I have
> been rather satisfied with Pilot. For the most part they leave me alone
> and
> I leave them pretty much alone. Every couple of years, we have a tech fair
> with visual aids and services as the focus. I talk with the representive
> they send from Pilot and also from the other scchools. I only got advised
> once by Pilots representative that I had Holly's collar on backwards. I
> usually hang out with him and help advertise his school. I am also aware
> that some folks haven't had the same experience that I had. Striving to
> make
> things better for guide dog users, guide dogs and the schools and
> owner-trainers is what we are supposed to be doing isn't it? Of cours, we
> can do this by showing facts and logically discussing them without bashing
> schools, dogs or folks. In the case of school contracts, do most schools
> send a copy? Pilot did. I can't remember about the ownership part but I do
> remember the part about returning used equipment.Well, I'm long winded
> enough so I'll blow out of here and take Holly to our church function
> tommorrow. We are having a raffle as part of our Knights council. Up here
> the green and blue are playing against each other. Should I dye Holly
> green?
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "National Association of Guide Dog
>>> Users" <blind411 at verizon.net>
>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 10:19 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
>>>
>>>
>>>> Tai,
>>>> I would actually prefer to respond on-list, as I believe it is
>>>> important for consumers to be aware of such things. I have had a few
>>>> consumers from Leader tell me they were told that, if they did not
>>>> trim down their dogs they would be removed, even when the vet
>>>> asserted they were at a healthy weight. I also had a couple whose
>>>> harnesses were repossessed by Leader because an official from the
>>>> Florida Division of Blind Services complained that their dogs were
>>>> acting out aggressively. This official told Leader that the couple
>>>> had been expelled from the Orientation and Adjustment Center because
>>>> of their dogs' aggressive behavior, an assertion that was untrue.
>>>> Someone also filed a complaint with Leader that this couple were
>>>> neglecting their dogs, something that was investigated by the local
>>>> animal control. I spoke with the investigator from animal control
>>>> and he said there was no evidence of abuse or neglect and, in fact,
>>>> the dogs toenails were painted. In his words, "People who abuse or
>>>> neglect their dogs do not paint their nails!" In spite of the fact
>>>> that there was no objective evidence of abuse or neglect and that
>>>> the assertions of the DBS official were untrue, Leader repossessed
>>>> their
> harnesses. BTW, the DBS official was reprimanded by a demotion.
>>>>
>>>> I recently had a Southeastern consumer tell me that a trainer made a
>>>> surprise visit to him and, a day or two later called to tell him
>>>> that, if he did not slim down his dog, they would repossess it.
>>>> This, in spite of the ownership policy in place at SEGDI.
>>>>
>>>> Then, of course, there is the case I wrote about in the April 2011
>>>> issue of the Braille Monitor in which Fidelco repossessed a woman's
>>>> dog after she made several attempts to have a trainer help her with
>>>> some fear issues her dog was experiencing. I have had a number of
>>>> Fidelco consumers tell me about similar incidents, however, they
>>>> were unwilling to pursue them for fear of retribution. I have also
>>>> been told it is a common practice of Fidelco to call consumers and
>>>> tell them they are five minutes away and want to inspect their dogs.
>>>> If they object, they are reminded of the clauses in the agreement
>>>> that state, "I agree to allow Fidelco's representatives to inspect
>>>> the dog and to survey my care and treatment of the dog at any
>>>> reasonable time" and that violation of the agreement is cause for
>>>> repossession of the dog. I assume Fidelco believes five minutes
>>>> notice is "reasonable"! In my opinion, the Fidelco agreement speaks
>>>> for itself on this topic! As a law student, what would you say about
>>>> such an ownership agreement? I would say that it is ownership in
>>>> name only with none of the rights and privileges normally ascribed
>>>> to ownership! I would also say that, if one were to challenge
>>>> Fidelco's right to repossess a dog after transferring ownership, the
> agreement would not stand the test of a legal challenge.
>>>>
>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tai Blas
>>>> Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 1:00 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
>>>>
>>>> Marion,
>>>>
>>>> Which schools have been known to arbitrarily interfere and repossess
> dogs?
>>>> If you'd prefer to respond to me off list, please do so at
>>>> taiablas at gmail.com
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> Tai
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of National
>>>> Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 11:42 AM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
>>>>
>>>> Mike,
>>>>
>>>> The issue is not one of "handing out pets" or "protecting an
> investment".
>>>> It is one of dignity, respect, and accountability. Ownership carries
>>>> with it certain privileges, among them the avoidance of arbitrary
>>>> interference by those who fail to recognize the ability of the
>>>> blind, believing their rights preempt those of the blind. No matter
>>>> how you dissect this issue, the unwillingness to transfer ownership
>>>> is founded in an archaic paternalistic attitude that cannot be
>>>> justified
> by any objective evidence.
>>>>
>>>> As Vice President Hingson stated and is our experience in light of
>>>> the numerous instances in which guide dogs have been removed without
>>>> cause, ownership is the only rational policy if one believes blind
>>>> people should be treated equitably with our sighted peers. Though
>>>> Fidelco asserts they transfer ownership after six months, their
>>>> agreement is far short of true ownership. Since when does a car
>>>> dealership have the right to repossess a dog at their sole and
>>>> absolute discretion. I know there are those who will argue that a
>>>> dog is diferent than a car; however, under the law, a dog is
>>>> property no different than a car, in spite of the fact that it is a
>>>> living breathing animal. In fact, following this argument to it
>>>> slogical end, how much more attached does one become to a living
>>>> being that offers unconcditional love an acceptance. After becoming
>>>> attached to such a being, should we not have the right to protect
>>>> ourselves from arbitrary, unjust interference from an organization
>>>> that
> will result in an emotional bond being broken without cause?
>>>>
>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>
>>>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
>>>> National Federation of the Blind
>>>> (813) 626-2789 (Office)
>>>> 888-NAGDU411 (Hotline
>>>> President at nagdu.org
>>>> www.nagdu.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike
>>>> Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 7:20 AM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
>>>>
>>>> A lot of time and money gets infested into producing a guide dog.
>>>> Its silly to try and pressure companies into giving complete
>>>> ownership
> to the handler.
>>>> If it doesn't work out in six months or a year or even two then,
>>>> depending on reason, that dog could go back to the company and
>>>> eventually go help someone else.
>>>> Why turn such an investment into someone's pet when it could be so
>>>> much more for someone else.
>>>> I personally don't agree with the bill of rights. People should just
>>>> understand their school of choice. Its not our decision. Its theirs
>>>> as a business. If we as consumers don't like it then we have other
>>>> schools to pick from.
>>>> If i ran a school id probably do the same thing. Its protecting an
>>>> investment and smaller schools cant afford to hand out pets.
>>>> JMO
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 9:45 PM, "Michael Hingson"
>>>>> <info at michaelhingson.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hannah,
>>>>>
>>>>> The problem is that what we define as full ownership is not what
>>>>> the schools usually mean. The Seeing Eye is an organization that
>>>>> provides ownership. I am not as familiar with Pilot, but Chantel
>>>>> indicates that Pilot also does give ownership.
>>>>>
>>>>> Other schools have different contracts that may or may not grant
>>>>> full ownership, and that may require that if a guide retires within
>>>>> some length of time the school may demand that the guide be
>>>>> returned for retraining or for some other purpose. NAGDU has
>>>>> passed resolutions calling on all schools to provide full ownership
>>>>> of guide dogs upon graduation, and that same position is stated in
>>>>> NAGDU's Guide Dog Consumer Bill of Rights. Most guide dog schools
>>>>> are living in the past and are as a result paternalistic to one
>>>>> degree or another. They do not see the tide of aware consumers
>>>>> which is turning against them and which is demanding the same
>>>>> rights given to other citizens in other
>>>> training situations.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael Hingson
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Hannah
>>>>> Chadwick
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:22 PM
>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
>>>>>
>>>>> Chantel,
>>>>> Thank you for the correction.
>>>>> Can someone please define complete ownership when it comes to guide
>>>>> dogs? I mean, if we get complete ownership, then doesn't that mean
>>>>> I'd get to keep the dog no matter the age when that dog stops
>>>>> working? I'm just curious since I was told that I had to send my
>>>>> dog back to the school because she didn't work out but she was only 3.
>>>>> Thank you, hannah
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chantel
>>>>> Cuddemi
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:08 PM
>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>>>>
>>>>> Hanna,
>>>>>
>>>>> Pilot Dogs gives us graduates full ownership of our dogs upon
>>>>> graduation from the program.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hope that helped,
>>>>>
>>>>> Chantel and Motley of Pilot Dogs.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Hannah
>>>>> Chadwick
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:56 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, GDB can provide more financial help if needed. I think that
>>>>> larger schools tend to have more follow-up services because they
>>>>> have more funds as well as trainers. I don't think Pilot gives
>>>>> complete ownership, but I could be wrong since that wasn't one of
>>>>> my concerns when I applied. Pilot also trains boxers and Dobermans
>>>>> in addition to
>>>> what Raven mentioned.
>>>>> On one hand I think that it is important to have a breed
>>>>> preference, but on the other, I think it is the training that
>>>>> matters
> the most.
>>>>> There are good things and bad things about every breed of dog. The
>>>>> work you put in is what you will get out. The more effort you put
>>>>> into your dog will mean more success with your team. When you get
>>>>> your dog, please remember that the bonding process takes between 6
>>>>> months and a year. As in my earlier email, please feel free to
>>>>> email me off list if you want to know about Pilot or Guide Dogs for
>>>>> the
> Blind.
>>>>> Good luck, Hannah and Spritzie
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: Raven Tolliver <ravend729 at gmail.com
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 19:39:50 -0400
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>> I attended Guiding Eyes for the Blind primarily because I wanted an
>>>>> adult dog. As a person who never owned or handled a dog before, I
>>>>> thought it important to have a dog that was physically and mentally
>>>>> mature, and had established mannerisms. I wanted a golden
>>>>> retriever, and goldens and German shepherds have a better work
>>>>> ethic as
> adults.
>>>>> This has been proven in studies of guide dog programs and service
>>>>> dog programs.
>>>>> I also chose GEB because of the financial assistance. Students are
>>>>> allotted $200 annually, and if your dog is 10 pounds within their
>>>>> target weight, the student is given another $100. There is also an
>>>>> emergency fund, but it can only be used once during a particular
>>>>> dog's career.
>>>>> The GDB grads can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think GDB gives
>>>>> more financial assistance than this. Grads from that program can
>>>>> explain the
>>>> logistics better.
>>>>> As far as what breed of dog is best at guide work, that depends on
>>>>> the person. I have always adored the gentle nature and laid-back
>>>>> temperament of a golden, and I would not want to live with the high
>>>>> energy and quirkiness of a typical labrador. German shepherds are
>>>>> very serious about their work, but they have high energy requirements.
>>>>> All
>>>>> three breeds are extremely loving, loyal and obedient if you bond
>>>>> with them properly. All three breeds have double coats, so they
>>>>> both shed a lot. I do not know as much about the other breeds put
>>>>> out by Pilot dogs, but people have success with them, so you would
>>>>> have to ask the handlers of poodles, dobermans, and Vieszlas.
>>>>> You have to decide for yourself what you like or don't like in a dog.
>>>>> And the personality is just as, if not more, important than breed.
>>>>> Also, know that if you are picky about breed that it may take
>>>>> longer to find you the right dog and get a class date. I was
>>>>> fortunate that my golden was available so soon after I applied, but
>>>>> I knew that being choosy might mean a longer wait.
>>>>> To determine which school might be right for you, you should rate
>>>>> the following factors by importance to you.
>>>>> location of school, home-training program, special needs program,
>>>>> cost of the program, length of program, financial assistance,
>>>>> follow up services, ownership policy, training methods, choice to
>>>>> meet and keep in touch with your dog's puppy-raisers, graduation
>>>>> ceremony, breeds offered, life stage of dogs issued These are just
>>>>> what I can think of for now, but there are more factors that others
>>>>> will bring to your
>>>> attention.
>>>>> If ownership is important to you, the Seeing Eye, Pilot Dogs, or
>>>>> Guide Dogs of America are options. If you don't understand why
>>>>> ownership is important to some people, then I will explain upon
>>>>> request, because it is a very serious issue that every service dog
>>>>> handler should have proper understanding of.
>>>>> If home-training is important to you this is offered by Fidelco,
>>>>> Guiding Eyes, and a couple other programs. Guiding Eyes usually
>>>>> does home-training with returning graduates, but they have been
>>>>> known to approve it for first time trainees.
>>>>> I would encourage you to complete your training with your first
>>>>> guide dog at the school if it is at all possible and convenient for
> you.
>>>>> The benefit is that you will not likely feel alone in the struggles
>>>>> you will experience, and also, you can get great training and
>>>>> doggie care tips from experienced guide dog handlers. In addition,
>>>>> you could develop long standing relationships with other
>>>>> classmates, which was a
>>>> plus for me.
>>>>> Good luck, and email me off list if you want to know more about my
>>>>> Guiding Eyes experience.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/31/13, Shickeytha Chandler <shickeytha at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Thank you all for your responses. I have actually been leaning
>>>>> toward a lab or a golden because I have heard in the past that
>>>>> those types of dogs are very loyal and have an even temperament.
>>>>> But at the same time, I want to have an open mind and consider what
>>>>> other types of dogs might have to offer. By the way, I love the
>>>>> names of all three of your dogs. Great dog names!
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/31/13, minh ha <minh.ha927 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hi Shickeytha,
>>>>>
>>>>> I want to echo what Hannah said in her email. I am working with my
>>>>> first guide, Viva from Guide Dogs for the Blind on their Oregon
>>>>> campus. As a college student, financial and post-graduation
>>>>> support were the two most critical aspects that I was looking for
>>>>> in a guide dog school. I felt like GDB provided both of these and
>>>>> I really liked their positive training methods as well as the
>>>>> respectful way they treat their handlers. Regarding the breed of
>>>>> dog, I think that ultimately needs to be your decision. Each
>>>>> individual has their preference and people are going to tell you
>>>>> their
> choice is the best.
>>>>> GDB only works with labs and golden retrievers. My girl is a lab
>>>>> and I couldn't have asked for a better dog; she's extremely
>>>>> energetic and playful, but she's an excellent worker once the
>>>>> harness
> goes on.
>>>>>
>>>>> Minh
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/31/13, Chantel Cuddemi <jawsgirl87 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Welcome to the list!
>>>>>
>>>>> I am working my first dog from Pilot Dogs, a standard poodle named
>>>> Motley!
>>>>>
>>>>> We've been a team for a year and eight months.
>>>>>
>>>>> Good luck with what school you choose!
>>>>>
>>>>> Chantel and Motley.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/31/13, Hannah Chadwick <sparklylicious at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hey,
>>>>> Welcome to the list. I'm working my second guide, Spritz. She is
>>>>> from Guide Dogs for the Blind. She is a black lab; I got her over
>>>>> the
>>>> summer.
>>>>> Since I'm a college student and having had a previous dog that was
>>>>> very high-maintenance, I knew I would need financial assistance
>>>>> and after support. Those were two of the major things I looked
>>>>> for when I applied to schools. The training methods (positive vs
>>>>> negative) used in schools also mattered to me. Of course which
>>>>> may vary on an individual and team basis, but I've come to realize
>>>>> that food rewards go a long way. My first dog was from Pilot
>>>>> because I wanted a poodle, but
>>>> she retired after almost a year.
>>>>> My training experience at Pilot was good, but I wasn't as
>>>>> experienced so I didn't have the necessary tools to manage such a
>>>>> high-strung dog. Please email me off-list if you have further
> questions.
>>>>> Good luck with the application process and all that.
>>>>> Best, Hannah and Spritz
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: Shickeytha Chandler <shickeytha at gmail.com
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 14:08:20 -0400
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>>>>
>>>>> No problem. I understand that different people have different
>>>>> experiences and perspectives, and I think it is important to
>>>>> consider both positive and negative. Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/31/13, Mike <blinkin4342 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> As a Fidelco client I completely disagree with the statement that
>>>>> Fidelco has contract issues. The issues are definitely personal
>>>>> and not Fidelco's fault.
>>>>> I have had nothing but good experiences with Fidelco over the last
>>>>> three years and I know a lot of people who feel the same way.
>>>>> There are a certain handful of folks on this list who have
>>>>> personal issues with Fidelco and tend to be much louder than the
>>>>> people who have good experiences.
>>>>> You should definitely read the contract to make sure you are aware
>>>>> of the rules. That is the case with any guy dog school. Just
>>>>> keep an open mind.
>>>>> Every school has good and bad things. Every school has someone who
>>>>> loves them and hates them. I'd recommend that you decide what
>>>>> breed you want, see what school meets your needs the best, and go
>>>>> forward from there.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 12:18 PM, "Larry D. Keeler"
>>>>> <lkeeler at comcast.net
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> First, watch out for Fidelco! They have contract issues.
>>>>> Before
>>>>> you
>>>>> decide, make sure you read and understand the contract. The other
>>>>> thing, schools when possible do give you a choice. Now always can
>>>>> they accomidate but usually they can. I went to Pilot because I
>>>>> wanted a poodle. They breed them down there. However, I ended
>>>>> up qith a labradoodle wich is almost as good! As for training at
>>>>> school or at home, I think it would be more useful to train at
>>>>> hom. But, if you know your neighborhood, it doesn't matter as much.
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shickeytha Chandler"
>>>>> <shickeytha at gmail.com
>>>>> To: <nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 11:44 AM
>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>>
>>>>> I am new to the list. I currently travel with a cane, but am very
>>>>> seriously considering getting a guide dog in the near future.
>>>>> I
>>>>> am
>>>>> doing research on guide dog schools to see which might be best for
>>>>> me.
>>>>> I am considering Fidelco, Guiding Eyes and the Seeing Eye.
>>>>> Does
>>>>> anyone
>>>>> on this list have either particularly positive or especially
>>>>> negative experiences with any of these schools? If so, I would be
>>>>> interested to hear your feedback. Also, I noticed that Fidelco
>>>>> does training at your residence, whereas the other schools bring
>>>>> you to their campuses for training. I would like to hear
>>>>> perspectives about the disadvantages and advantages of each of
>>>>> these methods of
>>>> training.
>>>>>
>>>>> Finally, I know that various types of dogs are trained as guides,
>>>>> ranging from labs to German Shepherds. I would like to know if
>>>>> schools give you a choice as to what type of dog you are paired with.
>>>>> Also, I
>>>>> would be interested to hear from anyone who has worked with dogs of
>>>>> various kinds; I'd like to know your thoughts as to whether there
>>>>> are distinct qualities that one breed possesses that another breed
>>>>> does not generally possess. Of course, I am sure all dogs are
>>>>> unique, even within a breed type.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know that is a lot of questions for one email. Thanks in advance
>>>>> for any insight that you can provide.
>>>>>
>>>>> Shickeytha
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the
>>>>> dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was
>>>>> vanity:
>>>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on
>>>>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E.
>>>>> Lawrence
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Raven
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>>>>> m
>>>>>
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