[nagdu] schools and self identification

Sun Nov 24 21:37:33 UTC 2013

I have no argument with your point.  However, I suspect during our various 
discussions on plane travel at TSE that, were they constantly advising 
airlines about where us dogged folks should sit, that would have come out 
one way or the other.

So then, the question, is anyone aware that TSE has been giving airlines 
seating advice?

As for various self-help organizations being involved in the role of 
advocacy, good for them/you!  I do envy your track record in the US, despite 
some serious issues in the past regarding dog guide use by at least one of 
your former leaders.  Frankly, compared to Canada, you make the Canadian 
efforts look almost as weak and feeble as is truly the case.  The think 
blind folks in Canada do better advocating for themselves than would be the 
case were any of our blind-based "song and dance" groups to get involved.

I did have an issue of attempted forced seating about 15 years ago and, not 
only did I manage to dissuade such silliness but actually made an audio 
recording which I played for the customer service folks.  Well, at least 
they had no choice but to believe my story.  I did indeed take there guilt 
money.  Truth to tell, Air Canada is one of our unfortunate attempts at 
Canadian humour.

Doug: Current temperature in Winnipeg, Zero degrees not counting windchill.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Hingson" <Mike at michaelhingson.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2013 3:16 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] schools and self identification

: Hi Doug,
:
: Actually, it isn't so much what the schools tell students, although that 
is
: a part of it.  The schools across the United States are often contacted by
: airports, the government, and others about their recommendations 
concerning
: how to handle guide dogs on flights.  I know that GDB has advised the 
local
: TSA here in San Francisco, and GDB has advised and provided training for
: local airline personnel.  I have heard from both groups that they have 
been
: advised that although bulkhead seating is not required it is the opinion 
of
: the school that bulkheads are the best places for guide dogs as the 
bulkhead
: provides "more room for the dog".  Of course as many blind frequent flyers
: know bulkheads no longer really provide more room.
:
: As I travel around the country and find other airline personnel attempting
: to put me in the bulkhead row, (without my authorization by the way), I 
make
: it a point to find out why they want to put me there.  After going through
: their litany of excuses they finally admit that a local guide dog school 
or
: some other service animal organization has advised them that bulkheads are
: the best places for guide dogs.
:
: So Jenine, I think it safe to say that the predominance of guide dog 
schools
: do advise bulkhead seating emphatically or tacitly such as in the case of
: GDF when they use bulkhead seating unless specifically told not to do so.
: Airlines and others look at what guide dog schools do and act accordingly.
:
: You are right that bulkhead seating opinions are a mixed bag until you 
look
: at frequent travelers and the mindsets they take over time.  This is why 
we
: have the NFB and NAGDU.  The job of the organized blind is to listen to
: consumers and draw conclusions.  We do and advocate appropriately.  Also,
: opinions or not the reality is that bulkhead seats provide a less safe
: environment for our guide dogs than non-bulkhead seats.  This is 
intuitively
: obvious and has nothing to do with seating preference.  I will not state
: that no guide dog should sit in a bulkhead row; only the FAA can make that
: ruling.  I would say that the FAA has said that blind persons cannot sit 
in
: emergency exit rows and we have not fought that ruling even though many of
: us could sit there safely.  Some fights are worth the effort and some are
: not at this point.
:
: If the FAA suddenly insisted that no blind person with a guide dog could 
sit
: in a bulkhead row I would be the first to speak out against such a 
proposal.
: So long as the passenger knows the risks and so long as bulkhead seating
: does not endanger other passengers then I think we should be able to sit
: where we want.
:
:
: Best,
:
:
: Michael Hingson
:
: -----Original Message-----
: From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Doug Parisian
: Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2013 11:07 AM
: To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
: Subject: Re: [nagdu] schools and self identification
:
: At the risk of being accused of a "me too," message, I do not recall The
: Seeing Eye ever giving bulkhead advice other than when I paired with my
: first dog in 1977.  I know for certain that it didn't happen in my last
: visit of 2003.
:
: Doug: hope I haven't left things up in the air.
:
: ----- Original Message -----
: From: "Jenine Stanley" <jeninems at wowway.com>
: To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
: <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
: Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2013 12:26 PM
: Subject: [nagdu] schools and self identification
:
:
:: Before we go off on a rant about schools and consumer input, let's find
: out
:: which schools still give this advice and which do so to airlines who
: consult
:: with them.
::
:: Though GDF does not tell students and graduates that the bulkhead seat is
:: best, we still do identify them when booking their travel to and from our
:: facility. If they tell us not to do so, we don't.
::
:: I know that some schools, TSE I believe and maybe GDB, have actual 
airline
:: seats set up on their campuses for people to practice with during
: training.
:: Good deal.
::
:: Other schools stick to old maxims like no dogs in zoos and bulkhead is
: best
:: but I can't say for certain which schools do this anymore. I just keep
:: hearing new handlers saying it and that can only come from one place.
::
:: As for consumer input, look at our debate about self identifying. What if
:: half of your consumers want to advocate for self identifying and the 
other
:: half do not? Who does the school listen to? Does the school just give all
:: options, which I believe is what we do now at GDF?
::
:: If we don't, recent grads, please contact me off list and we'll fix it,
:: again. :)
::
:: Consumer input is wonderful and helpful and I'm by no means against it,
: but
:: I think it has to be tempered and interpreted well in order to work. This
:: means knowing all of the options and ways people do things and why.
::
:: Jenine Stanley
:: jeninems at wowway.com
:: http://www.twitter.com/jeninems
::
::
::
::
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