[nagdu] schools and self identification

Sun Nov 24 23:43:54 UTC 2013

I wouldn't have such a problem with them saying that the bulkhead is
easiest for the dogs, if the flight attendants and other air personell
would listen to us when we tell them no bulkhead.  Yes, the schools
may not be helping, but it's a matter of respect.  If there is no rule
about it, why don't they listen when we tell them we prefer something
else?  Unfortunately, I think there is a bigger issue here.  It
worries me that so many flight attendants will make up the existence
of rules just so that they don't have to listen to us when we
respectfully choose another seating option.

On 11/24/13, Darla Rogers <djrogers0628 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Mike,
>
> 	I have been following this thread with great interest.  I don't
> believe GDA told us where we should or must sit on an air place; it was
> more
> about positioning the dog.
> 	I wish you could convince another TSE graduate I know how small
> bulkheads have gotten now; talk about dangerous and claustrophobic.
> 	The last time I was being forced, I got the flight attendant to read
> her little manual that states we can sit where we want except emergency
> rows, and I concur with your opinion that blind people could do, at least
> as
> well getting ourselves and others out of an airplane; I sure won't count on
> a flight attendant to save me in an event of an emergency evacuation.
> Darla
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael Hingson
> Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2013 3:16 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] schools and self identification
>
> Hi Doug,
>
> Actually, it isn't so much what the schools tell students, although that is
> a part of it.  The schools across the United States are often contacted by
> airports, the government, and others about their recommendations concerning
> how to handle guide dogs on flights.  I know that GDB has advised the local
> TSA here in San Francisco, and GDB has advised and provided training for
> local airline personnel.  I have heard from both groups that they have been
> advised that although bulkhead seating is not required it is the opinion of
> the school that bulkheads are the best places for guide dogs as the
> bulkhead
> provides "more room for the dog".  Of course as many blind frequent flyers
> know bulkheads no longer really provide more room.
>
> As I travel around the country and find other airline personnel attempting
> to put me in the bulkhead row, (without my authorization by the way), I
> make
> it a point to find out why they want to put me there.  After going through
> their litany of excuses they finally admit that a local guide dog school or
> some other service animal organization has advised them that bulkheads are
> the best places for guide dogs.
>
> So Jenine, I think it safe to say that the predominance of guide dog
> schools
> do advise bulkhead seating emphatically or tacitly such as in the case of
> GDF when they use bulkhead seating unless specifically told not to do so.
> Airlines and others look at what guide dog schools do and act accordingly.
>
> You are right that bulkhead seating opinions are a mixed bag until you look
> at frequent travelers and the mindsets they take over time.  This is why we
> have the NFB and NAGDU.  The job of the organized blind is to listen to
> consumers and draw conclusions.  We do and advocate appropriately.  Also,
> opinions or not the reality is that bulkhead seats provide a less safe
> environment for our guide dogs than non-bulkhead seats.  This is
> intuitively
> obvious and has nothing to do with seating preference.  I will not state
> that no guide dog should sit in a bulkhead row; only the FAA can make that
> ruling.  I would say that the FAA has said that blind persons cannot sit in
> emergency exit rows and we have not fought that ruling even though many of
> us could sit there safely.  Some fights are worth the effort and some are
> not at this point.
>
> If the FAA suddenly insisted that no blind person with a guide dog could
> sit
> in a bulkhead row I would be the first to speak out against such a
> proposal.
> So long as the passenger knows the risks and so long as bulkhead seating
> does not endanger other passengers then I think we should be able to sit
> where we want.
>
>
> Best,
>
>
> Michael Hingson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Doug Parisian
> Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2013 11:07 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] schools and self identification
>
> At the risk of being accused of a "me too," message, I do not recall The
> Seeing Eye ever giving bulkhead advice other than when I paired with my
> first dog in 1977.  I know for certain that it didn't happen in my last
> visit of 2003.
>
> Doug: hope I haven't left things up in the air.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jenine Stanley" <jeninems at wowway.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2013 12:26 PM
> Subject: [nagdu] schools and self identification
>
>
> : Before we go off on a rant about schools and consumer input, let's find
> out
> : which schools still give this advice and which do so to airlines who
> consult
> : with them.
> :
> : Though GDF does not tell students and graduates that the bulkhead seat is
> : best, we still do identify them when booking their travel to and from our
> : facility. If they tell us not to do so, we don't.
> :
> : I know that some schools, TSE I believe and maybe GDB, have actual
> airline
> : seats set up on their campuses for people to practice with during
> training.
> : Good deal.
> :
> : Other schools stick to old maxims like no dogs in zoos and bulkhead is
> best
> : but I can't say for certain which schools do this anymore. I just keep
> : hearing new handlers saying it and that can only come from one place.
> :
> : As for consumer input, look at our debate about self identifying. What if
> : half of your consumers want to advocate for self identifying and the
> other
> : half do not? Who does the school listen to? Does the school just give all
> : options, which I believe is what we do now at GDF?
> :
> : If we don't, recent grads, please contact me off list and we'll fix it,
> : again. :)
> :
> : Consumer input is wonderful and helpful and I'm by no means against it,
> but
> : I think it has to be tempered and interpreted well in order to work. This
> : means knowing all of the options and ways people do things and why.
> :
> : Jenine Stanley
> : jeninems at wowway.com
> : http://www.twitter.com/jeninems
> :
> :
> :
> :
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-- 
Julie McG
National Association of Guide dog Users board member,  National
Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary,
Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President,
and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
life."
John 3:16