[nagdu] schools and self identification

Mon Nov 25 15:45:32 UTC 2013

Yep, I recall commenting on that UK restriction too. 

I love the image of the dog holding your seat for you. Molly did that once
but she sat straight up in the seat and looked backward toward the back of
the plane. She shocked quite a few passengers as they'd not seen her coming
in. She of course thought this was highly amusing.

Jenine Stanley
jeninems at wowway.com
http://www.twitter.com/jeninems

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael Hingson
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2013 10:19 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] schools and self identification

Jenine,

Some good points.  There was talk somewhere overseas about restraining the
dog, but the most prominent discussion from Great Britain was a suggestion
that on long hall flights the dog should not ride in the cabin.  Michael
Osborne and I address that and such ideas have calmed down.  As we know,
with good preparation guides can go many hours without a serious need to
relieve.

I too buckle Africa, and Roselle and others before her, into my seatbelt
when I go to the restroom, (humans seem not to want to prepare for long
flights like we make our dogs do).  When I come back to my seat all I find
is that Africa has jumped into my seat and made herself at home thank you
very much. 

Best,

Michael Hingson

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jenine Stanley
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2013 06:43 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] schools and self identification

I expect that the argument of more supposed floor space and no need to tuck
the dog under looked good at one time. 

Also, if you do restrain your dog for safety reasons in bulkhead or any
other row, be sure to hook the leash into the dead ring of the collar or any
movement will inadvertantly correct your dog or worse, not allow the collar
to loosen. 

If I need to get up, I will put my dog's leash through the seatbelt and hook
it into the dead ring. That way he won't wander away should he decide I've
been gone too long. This is handy when I'm up front and the restrooms are
all the way in back and vice versa. :)

Michael, wasn't there some talk about foreign airlines on long flights, into
their countries of origin, being able to require some type of safety
restraint system? I want to say Australia and the UK? This was aimed more at
keeping the dog contained should it have an accident, more than keeping it
safe in turbulance as I recall. 

This is also one case for the removable harness handle. The leather body
piece is usually fairly comfortable and you can hook a leash into the O or D
rings fairly easily. 

Jenine Stanley
jeninems at wowway.com
http://www.twitter.com/jeninems

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Star Gazer
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2013 9:25 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] schools and self identification

Does anybody know if there is historic precedence for bulkhead setting? Was
the argument "It's better for the dog" true at one time?

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Margo Downey and
Arrow
Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2013 10:40 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] schools and self identification

Well, I guess Seeing Eye is among the few or the only one who has generally
not been a proponent of bulkhead seating.

Margo and Arrow

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael Hingson
Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2013 4:16 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] schools and self identification

Hi Doug,

Actually, it isn't so much what the schools tell students, although that is
a part of it.  The schools across the United States are often contacted by
airports, the government, and others about their recommendations concerning
how to handle guide dogs on flights.  I know that GDB has advised the local
TSA here in San Francisco, and GDB has advised and provided training for
local airline personnel.  I have heard from both groups that they have been
advised that although bulkhead seating is not required it is the opinion of
the school that bulkheads are the best places for guide dogs as the bulkhead
provides "more room for the dog".  Of course as many blind frequent flyers
know bulkheads no longer really provide more room.

As I travel around the country and find other airline personnel attempting
to put me in the bulkhead row, (without my authorization by the way), I make
it a point to find out why they want to put me there.  After going through
their litany of excuses they finally admit that a local guide dog school or
some other service animal organization has advised them that bulkheads are
the best places for guide dogs.

So Jenine, I think it safe to say that the predominance of guide dog schools
do advise bulkhead seating emphatically or tacitly such as in the case of
GDF when they use bulkhead seating unless specifically told not to do so.
Airlines and others look at what guide dog schools do and act accordingly.

You are right that bulkhead seating opinions are a mixed bag until you look
at frequent travelers and the mindsets they take over time.  This is why we
have the NFB and NAGDU.  The job of the organized blind is to listen to
consumers and draw conclusions.  We do and advocate appropriately.  Also,
opinions or not the reality is that bulkhead seats provide a less safe
environment for our guide dogs than non-bulkhead seats.  This is intuitively
obvious and has nothing to do with seating preference.  I will not state
that no guide dog should sit in a bulkhead row; only the FAA can make that
ruling.  I would say that the FAA has said that blind persons cannot sit in
emergency exit rows and we have not fought that ruling even though many of
us could sit there safely.  Some fights are worth the effort and some are
not at this point.

If the FAA suddenly insisted that no blind person with a guide dog could sit
in a bulkhead row I would be the first to speak out against such a proposal.
So long as the passenger knows the risks and so long as bulkhead seating
does not endanger other passengers then I think we should be able to sit
where we want.

Best,

Michael Hingson

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Doug Parisian
Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2013 11:07 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] schools and self identification

At the risk of being accused of a "me too," message, I do not recall The
Seeing Eye ever giving bulkhead advice other than when I paired with my
first dog in 1977.  I know for certain that it didn't happen in my last
visit of 2003.

Doug: hope I haven't left things up in the air.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jenine Stanley" <jeninems at wowway.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2013 12:26 PM
Subject: [nagdu] schools and self identification

: Before we go off on a rant about schools and consumer input, let's find
out
: which schools still give this advice and which do so to airlines who
consult
: with them.
:
: Though GDF does not tell students and graduates that the bulkhead seat is
: best, we still do identify them when booking their travel to and from our
: facility. If they tell us not to do so, we don't.
:
: I know that some schools, TSE I believe and maybe GDB, have actual airline
: seats set up on their campuses for people to practice with during
training.
: Good deal.
:
: Other schools stick to old maxims like no dogs in zoos and bulkhead is
best
: but I can't say for certain which schools do this anymore. I just keep
: hearing new handlers saying it and that can only come from one place.
:
: As for consumer input, look at our debate about self identifying. What if
: half of your consumers want to advocate for self identifying and the other
: half do not? Who does the school listen to? Does the school just give all
: options, which I believe is what we do now at GDF?
:
: If we don't, recent grads, please contact me off list and we'll fix it,
: again. :)
:
: Consumer input is wonderful and helpful and I'm by no means against it,
but
: I think it has to be tempered and interpreted well in order to work. This
: means knowing all of the options and ways people do things and why.
:
: Jenine Stanley
: jeninems at wowway.com
: http://www.twitter.com/jeninems
:
:
:
:
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