[nagdu] schools and self identification

Tue Nov 26 16:05:11 UTC 2013

Ann et al,

Agreed on all counts which is why by any definition placing a guide dog
under a non-bulkhead seat is the safest option available to us today.  I do
not believe it would be easy or inexpensive to create and install a "safe
restraint system" in a bulkhead row.

The reality is that even large dogs have gone into non-bulkhead rows on long
flights without discomfort.  I believe there is sufficient anecdotal
evidence to support moving away from the comfort argument and finally
addressing the real issue which is safety of our guides, us, and other
passengers. 

Best,

Michael Hingson

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ann Edie
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 04:52 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] schools and self identification

Hi, All,

I strongly suspect that hooking the dog's leash to either the dead ring of a
collar or to a ring on the harness is not going to improve the safety
situation much if at all for either the dog itself or the human passengers.
I think that, in the case of significant turbulence, if the dog were thrown
around at all, that either some part of this arrangement would break--the
leash, the snap, the ring--or that the way the dog is restrained would allow
too much movement and result in injury to the dog or to people within range.
It seems to me that a system that held the dog more closely and that acted
more like a conventional seatbelt system for human children would be the
only way to safely restrain an animal in an open area such as the bulkhead
row.  I think the system described by Michael and Jenine is fine for keeping
a dog from leaving its place and going wandering down the plane aisle to
look for the handler, but that's about all it's good for, not as a safety
restraint.  It might seem as if hooking the leash into the seat belt might
help keep the dog and humans safe, but if you've ever seen the police
demonstrations of what happens to crash dumbies in simulated vehicle
crashes, you will understand that it takes a lot more restraint than that
provided by a leash, and forces have to be distributed correctly for a
restraint to work properly, etc.  All of us, I'm sure, have seen how easily
a dog can wiggle out of a harness, or how they can get the harness caught on
the underside of a chair and can slip right out of it.  So I would bet quite
a bit that forces in any sort of emergency situation on an aircraft would
send the dog flying right out of the harness.  Guide harnesses are simply
not designed as safety restraints.  So far, I guess, there haven't been
many, if any, instances where animals in the plane cabin have been involved
in emergency situations or high-turbulance circumstances, so the data is
probably not available on which placement and restraint options work best in
these conditions.

It would be nice to think that legislation such as the ACAA or regulations
such as those made by the FAA pertaining to the carriage of service animals
in airplane cabins are based on actuarial data, but I somehow doubt that a
whole lot of government resources have been expended for the gathering of
such data.  So these regulations are probably based more on opinion and
political expediency than anything else.  I'm not at all sure that I agree
with Michael, however, that the dog handler knows best which position or
seating arrangement is safest for the dog or for passengers in the airplane
cabin with the service animal.  In the absence of scientific data, I think
we're all just speculating as to what is safest.  Now, if we're talking
about preferences, comfort, or convenience, then I agree that the handler
knows best what works for him/herself and his/her animal partner.

Best,
Ann

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jenine Stanley
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2013 6:43 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] schools and self identification

I expect that the argument of more supposed floor space and no need to tuck
the dog under looked good at one time. 

Also, if you do restrain your dog for safety reasons in bulkhead or any
other row, be sure to hook the leash into the dead ring of the collar or any
movement will inadvertantly correct your dog or worse, not allow the collar
to loosen. 

If I need to get up, I will put my dog's leash through the seatbelt and hook
it into the dead ring. That way he won't wander away should he decide I've
been gone too long. This is handy when I'm up front and the restrooms are
all the way in back and vice versa. :)

Michael, wasn't there some talk about foreign airlines on long flights, into
their countries of origin, being able to require some type of safety
restraint system? I want to say Australia and the UK? This was aimed more at
keeping the dog contained should it have an accident, more than keeping it
safe in turbulance as I recall. 

This is also one case for the removable harness handle. The leather body
piece is usually fairly comfortable and you can hook a leash into the O or D
rings fairly easily. 

Jenine Stanley
jeninems at wowway.com
http://www.twitter.com/jeninems

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Star Gazer
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2013 9:25 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] schools and self identification

Does anybody know if there is historic precedence for bulkhead setting? Was
the argument "It's better for the dog" true at one time?

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Margo Downey and
Arrow
Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2013 10:40 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] schools and self identification

Well, I guess Seeing Eye is among the few or the only one who has generally
not been a proponent of bulkhead seating.

Margo and Arrow

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael Hingson
Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2013 4:16 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] schools and self identification

Hi Doug,

Actually, it isn't so much what the schools tell students, although that is
a part of it.  The schools across the United States are often contacted by
airports, the government, and others about their recommendations concerning
how to handle guide dogs on flights.  I know that GDB has advised the local
TSA here in San Francisco, and GDB has advised and provided training for
local airline personnel.  I have heard from both groups that they have been
advised that although bulkhead seating is not required it is the opinion of
the school that bulkheads are the best places for guide dogs as the bulkhead
provides "more room for the dog".  Of course as many blind frequent flyers
know bulkheads no longer really provide more room.

As I travel around the country and find other airline personnel attempting
to put me in the bulkhead row, (without my authorization by the way), I make
it a point to find out why they want to put me there.  After going through
their litany of excuses they finally admit that a local guide dog school or
some other service animal organization has advised them that bulkheads are
the best places for guide dogs.

So Jenine, I think it safe to say that the predominance of guide dog schools
do advise bulkhead seating emphatically or tacitly such as in the case of
GDF when they use bulkhead seating unless specifically told not to do so.
Airlines and others look at what guide dog schools do and act accordingly.

You are right that bulkhead seating opinions are a mixed bag until you look
at frequent travelers and the mindsets they take over time.  This is why we
have the NFB and NAGDU.  The job of the organized blind is to listen to
consumers and draw conclusions.  We do and advocate appropriately.  Also,
opinions or not the reality is that bulkhead seats provide a less safe
environment for our guide dogs than non-bulkhead seats.  This is intuitively
obvious and has nothing to do with seating preference.  I will not state
that no guide dog should sit in a bulkhead row; only the FAA can make that
ruling.  I would say that the FAA has said that blind persons cannot sit in
emergency exit rows and we have not fought that ruling even though many of
us could sit there safely.  Some fights are worth the effort and some are
not at this point.

If the FAA suddenly insisted that no blind person with a guide dog could sit
in a bulkhead row I would be the first to speak out against such a proposal.
So long as the passenger knows the risks and so long as bulkhead seating
does not endanger other passengers then I think we should be able to sit
where we want.

Best,

Michael Hingson

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Doug Parisian
Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2013 11:07 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] schools and self identification

At the risk of being accused of a "me too," message, I do not recall The
Seeing Eye ever giving bulkhead advice other than when I paired with my
first dog in 1977.  I know for certain that it didn't happen in my last
visit of 2003.

Doug: hope I haven't left things up in the air.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jenine Stanley" <jeninems at wowway.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2013 12:26 PM
Subject: [nagdu] schools and self identification

: Before we go off on a rant about schools and consumer input, let's find
out
: which schools still give this advice and which do so to airlines who
consult
: with them.
:
: Though GDF does not tell students and graduates that the bulkhead seat is
: best, we still do identify them when booking their travel to and from our
: facility. If they tell us not to do so, we don't.
:
: I know that some schools, TSE I believe and maybe GDB, have actual airline
: seats set up on their campuses for people to practice with during
training.
: Good deal.
:
: Other schools stick to old maxims like no dogs in zoos and bulkhead is
best
: but I can't say for certain which schools do this anymore. I just keep
: hearing new handlers saying it and that can only come from one place.
:
: As for consumer input, look at our debate about self identifying. What if
: half of your consumers want to advocate for self identifying and the other
: half do not? Who does the school listen to? Does the school just give all
: options, which I believe is what we do now at GDF?
:
: If we don't, recent grads, please contact me off list and we'll fix it,
: again. :)
:
: Consumer input is wonderful and helpful and I'm by no means against it,
but
: I think it has to be tempered and interpreted well in order to work. This
: means knowing all of the options and ways people do things and why.
:
: Jenine Stanley
: jeninems at wowway.com
: http://www.twitter.com/jeninems
:
:
:
:
: _______________________________________________
: nagdu mailing list
: nagdu at nfbnet.org
: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
: To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nagdu:
: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/eggmann%40mymts.net
: 

_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/info%40michaelhingson.com

_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/margo.downey%40verizon.ne
t

_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/pickrellrebecca%40gmail.c
om

_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jeninems%40wowway.com

_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/annedie%40nycap.rr.com

_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/info%40michaelhingson.com