[nagdu] Use of Canes while at Guide Dog Training Programs; was: RE: The Differences in Dogs and Canes

Wed Oct 2 12:39:18 UTC 2013

Hello listers,

I am a Seeing Eye grad, having gotten my current guide from the school in
2008.

I received my first dog in 1999.
During both classes, I used my cane before I got my dog, and I also used it
some when we were healing our dogs in the building. I never got any hastles
from instructors.

I'm sorry others have had bad experiences.

I also remember that when we were on some routes, especially those involving
country work, we were encouraged to use our canes to make sure the dog was
staying along the curb or the edge of the road.

Have a great day all.

Liz and Gabe

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Star Gazer
Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2013 1:19 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Use of Canes while at Guide Dog Training Programs; was:
RE: The Differences in Dogs and Canes

I'm just now seeing this post. 
What does a cane mean on a deeper level as Sheri put it? 

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sherry Gomes
Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2013 7:09 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Use of Canes while at Guide Dog Training Programs; was:
RE: The Differences in Dogs and Canes

When I got my first dog from GDB in 1975, we were told not to use our canes.
I didn't care one way or the other, as I hadn't even been given a cane till
eight grade and didn't have the fondness and understanding of what it meant
on a deeper level at the time. And the dorm was just pretty much one long
straight hall. Over the years, GDB's policy changed and students were
encouraged to use their canes in the dorm, outside ont he grounds and if a
student went out somewhere in the evenings. Also, they did, at least as of
2009, encouraged grads to use their canes once they were back home, in
situations where you might be needing to find specific places or landmarks
to teach them to your dog. And they always, even back in the no cane days,
told students not to lapse on their cane skills because there would be times
when we would go places without our dogs.

I don't use my cane when I work my dog. I'm left-handed, so using a cane in
my right hand is a disaster. Grin. Also, I tried it and found it awkward for
me, probably because of how long I went with just using a dog without any
other mobility aid. But when I do go out without my dog, I take my cane
always. I don't have the skills I did all those years ago, fresh from five
years of mobility training through junior high and high school, but I'd
certainly never agree to move around an unfamiliar environment without a
cane if I didn't have a dog. Not now. I know I'm not invincible and
unbreakable now. 

Sherry

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ann Edie
Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2013 2:02 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: [nagdu] Use of Canes while at Guide Dog Training Programs; was: RE:
The Differences in Dogs and Canes

Hi, All,

It is my understanding that The Seeing Eye traditionally used to insist that
people go without their canes from the time they arrived at the school for
class.  I think the theory was that it was supposed to prepare you
psychologically for beginning your partnership with the guide dog, or
something like that.  It was supposed to point up the contrast between
feeling dependent and fearful when traveling without any mobility aid, and
the new feeling of freedom and grace that came with picking up the guide
harness for the first time.  I think they still assume or strongly urge that
people give up their canes when they come into class.  Many of us have
always thought that this is an unwise policy, especially when you have 20 or
more blind people walking through the halls and rooms of the facility in the
days before people get their dogs and in the days when you are heeling the
dog and not yet working them within the building.  But I suppose the worst
case scenario could be that there could be a good train wreck with multiple
canes, people, and leashed dogs all getting tangled up!

Recently, my brother was in class at the Seeing Eye.  This was during the
renovation of the residence building, and so the students were housed in a
local hotel.  My brother insisted that he was not going to walk through this
unfamiliar environment without his cane and with a new, young, large,
unharnessed dog in tow, especially when, unlike the main residence building,
here there would not be any instructors strategically positioned along the
routes between the dining room and park area and the bedrooms, to help avert
any impending mishaps.  The instructor told him that they thought it did not
look dignified for the guide dog users to be using canes to find their way
around.  My brother told the instructor that it looked far less dignified
for the blind people to be bumping into walls and other objects, falling
down stairs, etc.  It almost came to a showdown where he was either going to
go without a cane or go home without getting a dog at all.  But finally they
relented and gave him a short, thin, identification cane to use until it was
permitted to work the dog in the building.  But I think he was the only
student who insisted on having a cane to use.

When his class was over, he asked the brand of the cane he had borrowed,
because he thought he might want to get one to keep in his pack just in case
of need.  They said it had been around for so long that the brand name was
unreadable and they had no records of where it came from.  Evidently, no one
else had ever insisted on using a cane, so they gave him that one to keep.
They absolutely refused to let him use the regular cane he came to the
school with.  I guess they were afraid it would hurt or frighten the dog and
cause it to lose confidence.  Seems like nonsense to me, but they're the
experts, right?

I know that when I was at the Seeing Eye in the early 1990's, when we were
doing "country work", (walking along roads without sidewalks),  we were
taught to use our left foot to step sideways behind the dog to check on how
close or far away we were from the edge of the roadway.  Now I hear that
some programs, perhaps even TSE?, are having the students check with their
canes either behind or in front of the dog to see how far from the road's
edge they are.

(Is the freedom to use a cane at the guide dog programs before or even after
receiving the guide dog one of the items listed in the Guide Dog Users Bill
of Rights?  I don't remember reading that.  If it's not there, perhaps it
should be added.)  It would be interesting to hear the various guide dog
schools' policies on the use of canes by guide dog handlers, both when they
are in class and when at home working with their guide dogs.

Best,
Ann

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole Torcolini
Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2013 11:22 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] The Differences in Dogs and Canes

Yikes, someone telling you to go without a mobility aide, is that what I am
understanding? I certainly move around with neither dog nor cane in certain
areas, but they are areas that I know well. When I received Lexia, we
sometimes heeled our dogs when moving around the building. At these times,
we used our canes. Somehow, I never got frustrated with the
why-is-my-dog-stopping thing, but that is different for everyone. Maybe
because I had talked to several people about using a guide dog before
getting one, but that is beside the point. If having the cane around to help
problem solve works well for someone, especially in the beginning, that
there is no reason that that should not be around.
When learning new areas, I usually have a sighted person to help me, so I
don't use my cane that much, but, if I did not have sighted assistance , I
most certainly would use my cane in those situations, especially if it
included finding an object that the dog usually regards as an obstacle.

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Raven Tolliver
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2013 11:46 PM
To: nagdu
Subject: Re: [nagdu] The Differences in Dogs and Canes

Carol,
Yes, it is recommended to use your cane for patterning your dog and
familiarizing them to routes and landmarks.
Personally, I did this a lot when I returned to college with my dog.
Of course, I had massive trust issues.
The following feelings and statements are about the particular guide dog
program I attended. I have not extensively discussed multiple aspects of
other programs, so I will not make claims and comments out of ignorance.
During my class at my program, we were advised on the first night to start
walking around without our canes. I brushed this off and forgot all about
it, till I was reminded the next afternoon, since that was the day before we
would receive our dogs. Personally, I felt naked.
All my life, I considered my cane as a part of my body. Since I was
three-years-old, I had been using a cane. I did not use it everywhere all of
the time, but to familiarize myself with any location, I definitely used my
cane at first. I still feel like the program was faulty in that aspect.
These are guide dog instructors, not mobility instructors. They obviously
were not familiar with what the cane means, what it does, and the
relationship between it and its users.
Maybe everyone wasn't so hard pressed to let theirs go, but I was while I
was in class, and for about the next three months after I left school.
What I think they should do is have the student keep their cane with them
during the first week with their dog. The students shouldn't use the cane
because that would interfere with the dog; but when a hiccup concerning
making a turn or obstacle clearance occurs, the student could use the cane
to find out what is happening. For instance, I was on a walk at the school,
proceeding down the sidewalk, and my dog started moving over to the right.
Unfamiliar with moving laterally with my dog, I immediately stopped, then
told him forward. Again, he started curving right. I was perplexed by this
and just stood there and asked my instructor what was going on. She informed
me that the dog was clearing the side of an outdoor enclosure, and that I
needed to follow him. Okay, that's cool, but it would have been nice to have
used my cane to figure out what in the blazes my dog was doing. Also, for
curbs, construction barrels, and so on, it would have been nice to use my
cane first, then reach out or forward with my right arm or one of my feet to
realize that I can gather the same information using a different method.
During this incident with the outdoor enclosure, I was exposed to my dog's
sassiness in harness. If I wouldn't allow him to clear an obstacle, he would
just stop, back up, and let out a throaty sigh as if to say: "Okay Lady, are
you gonna let me do my job, or are you the guide for this team?" This
occurred more than I would like to say after I returned to my college
campus. I knew where everything was, and he had to figure it out, and I had
to somehow, teach him all of it and still allow him to guide me. This was a
great challenge. There were angled sidewalks, forked sidewalks, places where
we had to walk in the road and follow angled paths, and plazas to cross.
Whenever turning was possible, there were always three or four options, and
my dog always thought turning right was the correct path. It did not matter
if I said "forward" or "left," the path off to the right was his choice. Why
was he so stubborn? Back at school, things had never been this hard or
challenging.
My mobility instructor was extremely understanding. She had so much
experience and had seen dozens of people through their transitions from
being cane users to guide dog travelers. She already  knew of my trust
issues before I opened my mouth or walked with my dog under her watchful
eye. She encouraged me to carry my cane, but not use it on our first walk.
That was fine; the route was simple. But as the routes had more spins thrown
in, I became more and more frustrated. I resorted to pulling out my cane and
heeling for some of the routes, tapping landmarks and teaching him the way
with my cane. My instructor then advised me to start using my clicker, which
by the way, I think we only spent about two or three days on back at the
school. That was not long enough for it to stand out in the flurry of things
I had learned.
The clicker worked like a magic wand. He got excited when he saw it.
When he did things correctly and got a click and reward, he was pleased and
eager to do what I commanded. It made targeting and patterning easier.
I think if my guide dog program had weaned students off the cane, rather
than telling us to just walk around without it, this trust thing might not
have been so bad. That's questionable, especially considering I was
completely unfamiliar and inexperienced with communicating with dogs. It
also would have been nice if the school had taken the students to a college
campus to get the experience of traveling with a guide dog in such an area.
Okay, done rambling for now. I just thought it would be somewhat valuable to
share my experiences and get those things off my chest.
Phew!

--
Raven

Original Message:
Sent: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 05:54:10 -0800
From: Carol Osmar <osmarc at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,        the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
        <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] [nard] The Differences in Dogs and Canes

As a potential dog user, I have a question.  Is it ever recommended to use a
cane while with your dog to locate the things you mentioned, or would that
somehow undermine the trusting partnership you have with your dog?

Carol

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