[nagdu] Impact of visual acuity was Introduction and Questions

rhondacrz rhondaprincess at gmail.com
Sun Sep 8 18:26:26 UTC 2013


hello i'm glad that i'm all most totally blind.  i've been useing 
my first guide dog for for years.
 and i'm happy that i'm able to travel safer.  and i don't miss 
being able to use my sight.
i lost it for years ago.
and i'm proud about being totally blind.


> ----- Original Message -----
>From: "Larry D.  Keeler" <lkeeler at comcast.net
>To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog 
Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org
>Date sent: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 22:00:37 -0500
>Subject: Re: [nagdu] Impact of visual acuity was Introduction and 
Questions

>That's true!  I have no probblem with saying and practicing the 
respectable
>to be blind thing.  I also have a hard time thinking of blind 
folks driving.
>My issue with some is that they sort of preach the thing about 
not using the
>sight that you have and folks get the impression that if they're 
using there
>sight then they don't fit somehow.  I say use the sight, but 
understand that
>it may fail you and be prepaired for that.  I know a woman who 
really
>doesn't want to be considered blind.  She doesn't use her cane 
much and
>tries to depend on her vission to much.  She wanders around like 
a female Mr
>Magoo.  She walks acroos busy streets like she's taking a Sunday 
stroll and
>UI've seen her come close to getting hit!  When I talk to her, I 
tell her
>us3e the sight.  But also use your hearring and that cane because 
your sight
>isn't dependable.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Lisa belville" <missktlab1217 at frontier.com
>To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog 
Users"
><nagdu at nfbnet.org
>Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 2:03 PM
>Subject: Re: [nagdu] Impact of visual acuity was Introduction and 
Questions


>> Larry we had this issue with one of the chapters in Illinois.  
We had a
>> few people come and as soon as they heard the word blind, they 
got very
>> upset and left.  While the law considers them blind by it's wide
>> definition, these people had, for all practical purposes, normal 
vision.

>> The problem is, there are so many conditions and variations that 
everyone
>> who is considered legally blind isn't necessarily so low vision 
that they
>> automatically need to have Braille and a cane crammed down their 
throat.
>> There have been cases in IL where people have qualified for a 
restricted
>> driving license.  I know you don't just get those licenses out 
of a
>> Cracker Jack box; it takes a great deal of training to get one, 
and I'm
>> not debating whether or not these should be issued.  But, the 
reality is,
>> it's very hard to wrap my brain around blindness when someone is 
driving a
>> car, even if it's only during the daylight hours.

>> it's very hard to explain to people that there are different 
degrees of
>> blindness, and not everyone is completely totally blind.  When 
people
>> think of blindness, they think of complete darkness even though 
this
>> couldn't be further from the truth.  The NFB has just made this
>> distinction more difficult by insisting that "If you're blind, 
you're
>> blind" even though there is a huge difference between someone 
with a ton
>> of usable vision and someone who can only see light or bright 
colors.

>> And yes, I'm sorry, there is a difference.  Nine times out of 
ten, someone
>> who has the stereotypical 20/200 legal blindness definition is 
going to be
>> able to do things faster than I am, be considered for employment 
before I
>> am and basically encouraged to do more than I.  I know this is 
true
>> because I used to be a partial and it was easier to have people 
take me
>> seriously in just about everything.  It was easier to read 
things on the
>> spur of the moment, pick out my own clothing independently, etc.

>> I get that there are all kinds of instances where someone with a 
great
>> deal of usable vision has great difficulty.  there used to be a 
woman in
>> this apartment complex with RP.  She had 20/20 vision in one 
eye, but only
>> about a 2 degree field of vision.  You'd never know she had any 
visual
>> issues because she'd gotten very good about using the vision she 
had.  She
>> would have qualified for a dog, but I'm not sure how well she 
would have
>> used the dog given her amount of vision.  It takes a lot of 
practice and
>> trust to use a dog effectively with usable vision.  it doesn't 
mean people
>> with vision can't use a dog correctly, but it is a different 
mindset and
>> IMO it would be much harder for those people to learn to trust 
their dog.

>> Lisa




>> Hey, guess what! guess what! guess what! Aww crap, I forgot!
>> Lisa Belville
>> missktlab1217 at frontier.com

>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Larry D.  Keeler" <lkeeler at comcast.net
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog 
Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 11:24 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Impact of visual acuity was Introduction 
and
>> Questions


>>> Some folks in NFB do though!  I always argue with our chapter 
President
>>> because she was never able to see and I was at least until I was 
ten.
>>> After I had my other eye removed, I adapted quite well but still 
used my
>>> vission.  Our Pres tells everyone with partial sight to forget 
using it
>>> and enjoy it while it lasts!  I tell her that its better to use 
what you
>>> have but!!!  Use it with the understanding that it may not last 
and that
>>> what you have isn't perfect.  Don't be shy to at least carry a 
cane, use
>>> a dog or whatever if it helps.  In short, supplement what your 
sight
>>> cannot tell you with things that can.  Our chapter is having a 
hard time
>>> getting going because we have a few partially sighted folks who 
are sort
>>> of offended that they are being instructed not to use there 
sight.  I
>>> have interceeded with the veiw abov and it seems to help some.
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at gmail.com
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog 
Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 11:15 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Impact of visual acuity was Introduction 
and
>>> Questions


>>>>I don't think that the articles you read from NFB ever implied 
that you
>>>>should not rely on your vision.  I was trained in Iowa at the 
Iowa
>>>>Orientation and Adjustment Center when Dr.  Jernigan was here.  
Yes, the
>>>>people with vision were trained to use their alternative 
techniques with
>>>>shades on.  This is because human nature won't allow a person not 
to peek.
>>>>It's hard enough when the things are being worn.  You will more 
likely
>>>>learn the techniques if you cannot see at the time you are 
learning them.
>>>>Then theory has it that you will learn (figure out maybe) how to 
use the
>>>>vision appropriately and the rest of the time to use the 
alternative
>>>>techniques.  Beyond that, the NFB has always espoused the 
terminology that
>>>>either you are blind or you are not and if you are blind and 
eligible for
>>>>services for blind people, then you shouldn't be ashamed to admit 
to
>>>>being blind.  I would assume that it is more a means to help you 
with your
>>>>own personal attitude.  And to show this truth, if you say you 
aren't
>>>>blind but you demand services from the agency serving the blind 
in the
>>>>state, is it a double standard? Anyway, this is just a long way 
to say
>>>>that I think the articles are more to teach appropriate use of 
vision and
>>>>not to tell you not to use it.  These are my thoughts on it 
anyway.

>>>> CL

>>>> On Feb 1, 2012, at 10:07 AM, Brenda wrote:

>>>>> Hi Rebecca

>>>>> You bring up some very valid points regarding partial sight.  As 
a
>>>>> person with partial sight I don't always know how to express my 
needs.
>>>>> I have been forced to rely on my vision with no adaptive help 
until I
>>>>> figured things out for myself.  I now have the awareness to 
accept help
>>>>> from a totally blind traveler who is betterat street crossings 
then I.
>>>>> However, others with limited vision may not be able, aware or 
ready to
>>>>> do so.

>>>>> As for 20/200, 20/1000 etc, the way I learned it is Ineed to be 
20 feet
>>>>> away to see what someone with normal vision can see from 200 
feet or I
>>>>> need to be 20 feet away to see what aanother person can see at 
1000.
>>>>> Butsince I really don't know what 200 feet is, I don't really 
have a
>>>>> clue what the numbers mean.

>>>>> It would be nice to see more explanation of visual acuity issues 
at
>>>>> guide dog schools, in colleges for rehab professionals and at 
NFB
>>>>> conferences.  My first contact with the NFB was reading articles 
about
>>>>> how I was 'blind already' and that I should not rely on my 
vision.
>>>>> This thread and another list I belong to has shown me that the 
NFB is
>>>>> made up of people with varying degrees of sight in the legal 
blind
>>>>> category.  But as this thread and you point out, we all need 
further
>>>>> clarification.  This will help those of us with low vision as we 
decide
>>>>> to get a guide and also the people with total vision in the 
class and
>>>>> the instructors at the schools.

>>>>> Brenda




>>>>> On 2/1/2012 10:35 AM, Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC) wrote:
>>>>>> Thank you Julie.
>>>>>> I'm wondering if there should be a lecture on this issue at the 
guide
>>>>>> dog schools, just so people like me "get it".

>>>>>> Another thing I've noticed is that I have encountered some 
people with
>>>>>> low vision that act as if their vision is more important then 
any data
>>>>>> I may give them.  For example, I was working in pairs with a 
lady who
>>>>>> had "some vision" by her words.  We were about to cross a 
street, and I
>>>>>> told her a car was coming.  She said "I don't see anything" 
right as
>>>>>> the car zoomed by.  She said it in this tone that indicated she 
had to
>>>>>> be right and I had to be wrong.

>>>>>> To her credit, she did thank me, though I'm still not sure she
>>>>>> understood her attitude.

>>>>>> Combine this with the "Sometimes my vision works, sometimes it
>>>>>> doesn't, but I won't tell anybody what's going on" and it is
>>>>>> incredibly frustrating.

>>>>>> And, I think I'd experience the same confusion if my husband 
said "I
>>>>>> have days when it's easier for me to take out the trash, and 
days when
>>>>>> it isn't, you guess which days and guess as to why this might be
>>>>>> happening"  Add to that the attitude of "I'm a man and I take 
the
>>>>>> trash out sooo much better then you...  but only when these 
mystical
>>>>>> conditions are right" and this make more sense.

>>>>>> It's not my place to decide who needs a dog.  It does impact me 
when I
>>>>>> have to deal with someone under conditions that have not been 
clearly
>>>>>> explained to me.



>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
On
>>>>>> Behalf Of Julie J.
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 9:40 AM
>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog 
Users
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions

>>>>>> Rebeka,

>>>>>> This is very interesting to me.  I wonder if this not 
understanding of
>>>>>> differences in vision might contribute to some of the 
intolerance of
>>>>>> people with partial vision getting access to services and 
resources?
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> don't mean from you, personally, of course.  Just that lack of
>>>>>> understanding sometimes leads some people to come to incorrect
>>>>>> conclusions or make judgments.

>>>>>> When I talk about stress and vision, I'm talking about mental 
stress
>>>>>> from trying to look everywhere at once or try to see things that 
are
>>>>>> just outside of my ability to see them.  There is also actual 
stress or
>>>>>> strain to my eyes when I try to do to much visually.  I'd say 
this is
>>>>>> similar to someone trying to lift something that is really to 
heavy.
>>>>>> Your muscles might feel like burning, you might shake a bit from 
the
>>>>>> strain and later you will be sore.  The symptoms are different 
for
>>>>>> visual strain, but the effective outcome is about the same.

>>>>>> For me first learning how to use a cane and then later a guide 
dog,
>>>>>> has
>>>>>> meant that I don't need to be nervous that I'm going to miss 
something
>>>>>> visually.  The dog will do that for me, more reliably than I 
ever
>>>>>> could.    If I'm having a good vision day, meaning that my head 
isn't
>>>>>> thumping, my eyes aren't watering, the sun isn't shining and 
it's not
>>>>>> the first thing in the morning or late in the day, then I can 
use my
>>>>>> vision in useful ways.

>>>>>> If I was denied the use of a guide dog, never got cane travel
>>>>>> instruction or the other alternative skills I've learned, I 
don't
>>>>>> think
>>>>>> I'd be able to leave the house alone.   I wouldn't have a job,
>>>>>> friends,
>>>>>> volunteer in the community or even be happy.  I'd be a prisoner 
in my
>>>>>> own home with no hope of parole.  I think I might lose my mind.

>>>>>> Julie






>>>>>> On 2/1/2012 7:49 AM, Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC) wrote:
>>>>>>>          I have no vision.  Nobody has ever explained to me the
>>>>>>> differences in visual acuity and what that may mean until this
>>>>>>> discussion.
>>>>>>> For example, until I read Brenda's post, I had no clue that 
telling
>>>>>>> the difference between grass and pavement was harder, because 
when
>>>>>>> you do it with acane, it's a piece of cake.

>>>>>>> I understand from reading these posts how lighting can affect 
vision.
>>>>>>> I don't understand the stress or the "my vision changes from
>>>>>>> day-to-day" comments.
>>>>>>> I simply haven't had them explained in a manner that makes sense 
to
>>>>>>> me.

>>>>>>> I've encountered people with partial vision in my guide dog 
classes
>>>>>>> who can see a dime, in the next town, in the next county, and 
nobody
>>>>>>> ever explained that they may not see a bus right in front of 
them.  So
>>>>>>> I'm left with a WTF?? Reaction.

>>>>>>> Add to that the fuzzy language of "My vision changes from day to 
day"
>>>>>>> and I'm totally confused.

>>>>>>> Nobody has explained what the visual acuity numbers mean either.  
So
>>>>>>> hearing those numbers without the tie-in to something tangible 
is
>>>>>>> Greek to me.

>>>>>>> It would be useful to me when I encounter someone with partial 
vision
>>>>>>> for them to tell me what they need/want me to do, not what they 
can
>>>>>>> or can't see, how that changes.  It's interesting to know, and I
>>>>>>> would like to know it, but practically speaking it means more to 
me
>>>>>>> if you say "I can't see the appropriate place to sit, can you 
take me
>>>>>>> to it"



>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
On
>>>>>>> Behalf Of Brenda
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 7:31 PM
>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog 
Users
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions

>>>>>>> Well said Tami and marion.

>>>>>>> In addition, not only people with RP have trouble seeing.  I 
have
>>>>>>> never
>>>>>>> had depth perception and in fact have fallen down stairs.  No 
one
>>>>>>> even
>>>>>>> thought I needed a cane and I continued to survive in the 
sighted
>>>>>>> world
>>>>>>> as a second class citizen.

>>>>>>> When I finally took the step to get some mobility training, the
>>>>>>> instructor told me 'you have more vision than you realize' 
because I
>>>>>>> could walk in a straight line.  It was in the winter so I could 
tell
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> difference between snow and pavement.  Now grass and pavement is 
a
>>>>>>> little harder.  I can see the confusion of a person with a 
drivers
>>>>>>> licence using a guide dog, but perhaps there is more to it than 
that
>>>>>>> and/or maybe they shouldn't even have had a license.

>>>>>>> It is very depressing that people with partial sight are slapped 
down
>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>> people with less visual acuity.  Sometimes it is even people who 
have
>>>>>>> been in my shoes who devalidate me and my needs.  Maybe I can 
see
>>>>>>> well
>>>>>>> one day and not another.  Maybe Ican "see" in areas I travel 
alot as
>>>>>>> long as there are no obstacles.  Maybe it depends on the 
daylight,
>>>>>>> sunlight, season and stress level.

>>>>>>> And if people with partial sight don't need guide dogs, maybe we
>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>> need to learnBraille either.

>>>>>>> That said, I'm learning Braille and am glad to hear GDF and 
other
>>>>>>> schools are open to people with remaining vision based on the
>>>>>>> individual
>>>>>>> situation.

>>>>>>> I don't object to your concerns and question of people with 
partial
>>>>>>> sight using guide dogs Robert.  However, the way you went about 
it
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> generalized and not very diplomatic.

>>>>>>> Brenda




>>>>>>> '





>>>>>>> On 1/30/2012 5:44 PM, Tami Kinney wrote:
>>>>>>>> Robert,

>>>>>>>> Well, I have RP and have been legally blind since 1999.  Had it 
not
>>>>>>>> been for my spouse, whom I finally had to just divorce for 
several
>>>>>>>> reasons, I would have applied for a guide then, once I learned 
cane
>>>>>>>> travel, which I ended up having to learn on my own.  However, by 
the
>>>>>>>> numbers I did qualify.  I needed a cane, thus I needed a dog.

>>>>>>>> The one program that I did follow through with, just to see what
>>>>>>>> happened, decided somehow that I have really great vision and 
can
>>>>>>>> read
>>>>>>>> street signs.  Therefore, I do not need a guide dog, according 
to
>>>>>>>> them.

>>>>>>>> Um...  First of all, that was certainly not true by 2006.  Also, 
the
>>>>>>>> ability to read street signs -- even if I had, in fact, 
possessed
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> ability -- seems to me pretty, um, something.  Think about it.

>>>>>>>> Still, I had decided by that point that I wasn't that interested 
in
>>>>>>>> putting up with that sort of attitude, and some things in my 
life
>>>>>>>> had
>>>>>>>> changed.  So I got a poodle puppy and trained her myself.  She 
is now
>>>>>>>> 5.5 and an excellent working guide.  I do not think of her as
>>>>>>>> self-trained but as owner-trained.

>>>>>>>> I think it is fair to say that for me and my guide, the 
percentage
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> program trained dogs over owner-trained dogs that cause problems 
for
>>>>>>>> us is, well, one hundred percent.  I have met and worked around 
other
>>>>>>>> owner-trained dogs, but there has been zero problem because of
>>>>>>>> either
>>>>>>>> dog.  Every guide dog that has caused difficulty with my
>>>>>>>> owner-trained
>>>>>>>> guide is program-trained by a certified trainer.

>>>>>>>> When my dog was very young, she did have difficulty adjusting to
>>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>>> around other dogs, so she did cause problems.  We worked on that 
and
>>>>>>>> now she does not.  The problems she had when she was young began 
at
>>>>>>>> her
>>>>>>>> first exposure to other working guides.  A program-trained dog
>>>>>>>> growled
>>>>>>>> and lunged at her outside an elevator, then again in the 
elevator.  A
>>>>>>>> short while later, that same dog repeated the behavior because 
we
>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>> unable to avoid passing the pair.  Another program-trained dog 
at
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> same short event brought his handler close enough that the man 
would
>>>>>>>> have tripped over her if she hadn't jumped out of the way.  He 
nearly
>>>>>>>> tripped over me another time walking by where I was sitting.

>>>>>>>> So, she was pretty uptight around other guides for quite a 
while,
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> it took a lot of work with her to keep her from being ruined, 
since
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> won't have a working guide that is that reactive to other 
guides.  So
>>>>>>>> those first program-trained guides we met nearly cost me all the
>>>>>>>> training I'd put into my dog.  They caused me and my 
owner-trained
>>>>>>>> pup
>>>>>>>> way more difficulty than any pet dog has.  We made it through, 
and
>>>>>>>> Mitzi is fine around other guide and service dogs now, but it 
took a
>>>>>>>> lot of work for both of us to get there.  For a long time, I 
thought
>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>> wouldn't.

>>>>>>>> She has saved my life many times.  Not anyone else did that by 
giving
>>>>>>>> her to me already trained.  Just her, following the training I 
gave
>>>>>>>> her
>>>>>>>> and her own brains and good judgment.

>>>>>>>> As a partial, I hear all the time when it comes to resources of 
all
>>>>>>>> types that my really great vision means I don't need whatever it 
is
>>>>>>>> and that by just asking I am somehow taking it from "blind 
people
>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>> need it."

>>>>>>>> This has cost me well into the 6 figures by now.

>>>>>>>> I don't have really great vision, not by any vision exam I have 
had
>>>>>>>> really since before I crossed that magical numerical line that
>>>>>>>> qualified me as legally blind.

>>>>>>>> It sounds to me, though, like you think I shouldn't get a guide 
dog
>>>>>>>> because I don't really need one.  Or adaptive technology to 
return to
>>>>>>>> my vocation, I suppose.

>>>>>>>> Is there anything else I don't deserve in your opinion? /evil 
grin/

>>>>>>>> I understand that it can be difficult to rectify differences.
>>>>>>>> However,
>>>>>>>> it was the guide dog program that told you you just wanted the 
dog
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> a pet.  It was not a partial or an owner-trainer.

>>>>>>>> Tami

>>>>>>>> On 01/30/2012 01:46 PM, Harris.Robert at epamail.epa.gov wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hi Marion:

>>>>>>>>> My wife has RP so I know all that.  I can only say how I felt 
when
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> school in 1980 or 1981 had the balls to tell me I wanted the dog 
as
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> pet made me feel.  I also think (I'm an old fox with a lot of 
years
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> experience now) that I saw a dog guide user with a day time 
drivers
>>>>>>>>> license.  I'm not buying any of that but I'm just me:0).  When
>>>>>>>>> Pilot
>>>>>>>>> took me on at 19 they basically saved my life.  I'm a fast 
traveler
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> was a top notch cane user who taught others that were blind, 
but, I
>>>>>>>>> went
>>>>>>>>> to many many different places and knew in my heart that I needed
>>>>>>>>> four
>>>>>>>>> legged help.

>>>>>>>>> I can tell you many instances where "self trained dogs caused me 
a
>>>>>>>>> lot
>>>>>>>>> of problems, but, I think it is possible to train your own dog, 
if
>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>> a certified trainer.






>>>>>>>>> From:    "Marion Gwizdala"<blind411 at verizon.net
>>>>>>>>> To:    "NAGDU Mailing List,    the National Association of Guide
>>>>>>>>>               Dog Users"<nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> Date:    01/30/2012 03:16 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject:    Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>>>>>>>> Sent by:    nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org



>>>>>>>>> Robert,
>>>>>>>>>       Individuals with retinitis pigmentosa may have fairly good
>>>>>>>>> acuity
>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>> their fields of vision may be seriously compromised.  narrow 
fields
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> vision
>>>>>>>>> can distort depth perception so that individuals may not realize
>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>> standing at the top of a flight of stairs or at the threshhold 
of a
>>>>>>>>> loading
>>>>>>>>> dock.  Furthermore, since the periphery of the retina contains a
>>>>>>>>> high
>>>>>>>>> concentration of rods cells that are responsible for sight in 
dimly
>>>>>>>>> lit
>>>>>>>>> areas and the ability to see moving objects, those affected by 
this
>>>>>>>>> condition benefit from using a dog to travel safely under those
>>>>>>>>> conditions.

>>>>>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>>>>>> Marion Gwizdala



>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From:<Harris.Robert at epamail.epa.gov
>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 2:30 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions


>>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure why somebody with very high vision would need a dog
>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>> and have said so in school.  Somebody and bodies were in 
training
>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>> me and could see faces, identify cars and see the surrounding 
area
>>>>>>>>>> pretty clearly for well over 50 yards? I'm an honest person and
>>>>>>>>>> didn't
>>>>>>>>>> hesitate to ask why the hell they were getting a dog.  Answers 
off
>>>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>>>>> only but I was not happy&    hope they didn't get a dog guide.

>>>>>>>>>> There are waiting lists for people who are very low partials&/or
>>>>>>>>>> totally blind to get a dog guide so its not just a cut and dry
>>>>>>>>>> "get a
>>>>>>>>>> dog".  there is a evaluation&    process for reasons mentioned
>>>>>>>>>> above.

>>>>>>>>>> Hope I don't come across as brash but I have very strong 
feelings
>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>> this topic.






>>>>>>>>>> From: "Larry D.  Keeler"<lkeeler at comcast.net
>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide
>>>>>>>>>>              Dog Users"<nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> Date: 01/30/2012 12:58 PM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>>>>>>>>> Sent by: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org



>>>>>>>>>> Good choice!  For me it was a case of the more the merrier!.
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>> From: "Melissa Pasron"<fuzzylucky2021 at sbcglobal.net
>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 10:47 AM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions


>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for giving me a different perspective.  I am really
>>>>>>>>>>> trying
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> weigh the options before I make a decision.  My current deciding
>>>>>>>>> factor
>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>> that I currently have a pet dog and I don't know if I'll be 
ready
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>>> all the grooming and caring for two dogs.  Not to mention if a
>>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>> dog is
>>>>>>>>>>> right for me at the current moment.  I think I'll just sit on 
the
>>>>>>>>> issue
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> a while and think about it.  I don't want to go rushing into a
>>>>>>>>> decision
>>>>>>>>>>> without giving it a lot of thought.

>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone

>>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 30, 2012, at 9:37 AM, "Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)"
>>>>>>>>>>> <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>    wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>>> In making your decision, think about what you most want to do
>>>>>>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>> return home from being out someplace.  Do you want to spend time
>>>>>>>>>> grooming
>>>>>>>>>>>> and caring for a dog, and doing it every single day, or would
>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>>>>>> do something else.

>>>>>>>>>>>> I worked two dogs.  Then I had my daughter and found that all I
>>>>>>>>> wanted
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> do was hang out with her, especially after being at work all
>>>>>>>>>>>> day.
>>>>>>>>>> Taking
>>>>>>>>>>>> care of the dog became more of a chore then something I enjoyed.
>>>>>>>>> And,
>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>> times it became very difficult to balance, baby wanted to eat or
>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>> held,
>>>>>>>>>>>> dog needed to be brushed, you can't do both at the same time.
>>>>>>>>>>>> And,
>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>>>> an obvious answer may be "get help with the baby" I enjoyed and
>>>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>>>>>>> enjoy taking care of her.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Think about how you'll feel when the dog wakes you up to go
>>>>>>>>>>>> potty,
>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>> you be okay with it or will it mentally wear you out as "one
>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>> thing I
>>>>>>>>>>>> have to do".

>>>>>>>>>>>> What are your hobbies and are they comptible with a guide dog?
>>>>>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>>>> always leave a cane, and a cane is easy to replace.  Not true
>>>>>>>>>>>> with a
>>>>>>>>>> dog.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I have had a couple access issues.  I can tell you that when 
that
>>>>>>>>>> happens,
>>>>>>>>>>>> the very first thought that goes through your head is "This
>>>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>> f***s
>>>>>>>>>>>> up my plans".
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll add that I like dogs.  They are neat animals, and I think
>>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>>>>> to teach us.  At times I miss having one.  On a day when the sun
>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>> shinging, and it's 65 degrees, I'd love to take a guide dog and
>>>>>>>>>>>> walk
>>>>>>>>>> on a
>>>>>>>>>>>> bike path, as the feeling of you being in synch with a dog is
>>>>>>>>>> amazing.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Right now, I can't deal with the 24/7 nature of a guide dog.  I
>>>>>>>>> can't
>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>>>> it with a pet dog either.

>>>>>>>>>>>> You can bring a guide dog anywhere, but you also need to plan on
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>> with food, water, rest, appropriate supervision, things like
>>>>>>>>>>>> that.
>>>>>>>>>> It's
>>>>>>>>>>>> difficult to "just stay a bit longer" when you didn't plan on it
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> don't have food for your dog.

>>>>>>>>>>>> So, the answer is that it really depends.  I offer my 
perspective
>>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>>>> this list is made up of people who are currently using dogs and
>>>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>>>>> doing it.  It would be useful for you and others to have a
>>>>>>>>>>>> different
>>>>>>>>>>>> perspective.

>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of melissa padron
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 10:35 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions

>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello,


>>>>>>>>>>>> I am new to this list so I though I would just start off with an
>>>>>>>>>>>> introduction and then some questions.

>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, first of all, my name is Melissa and although I am not a
>>>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>> user I am a cane user.  I'm in college pursuing a degree in
>>>>>>>>> psychology
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> I will be moving back to my hometown once I graduate.  I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>> considered
>>>>>>>>>>>> legally blind, so I do have vision.

>>>>>>>>>>>> Because of the condition I have, I was not taught to use a cane
>>>>>>>>> until
>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>> senior year of high school.  I actually had to fight in order to
>>>>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>>> cane
>>>>>>>>>>>> lessons, but since then, I just about take my cane everywhere
>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>> me.  It
>>>>>>>>>>>> helps a lot more than using my vision and stressing my eyes....

>>>>>>>>>>>> Now, some questions:

>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not considering getting a guide dog now but I do want to
>>>>>>>>>>>> keep
>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>> an option if I decide that it would help me in my travels.  So 
my
>>>>>>>>>> question
>>>>>>>>>>>> is, what was ultimately you deciding factor in getting a guide
>>>>>>>>>>>> dog?
>>>>>>>>>>>> What are some advantages and disadvantages in using a guide dog?
>>>>>>>>>>>> For those of you who have vision, did you encounter problems
>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> guide dog schools saying that a guide dog would not benefit you
>>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>>>> you have "too much" vision?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ultimately, this is my greatest fear.  I'm scared of 
encountering
>>>>>>>>>>>> criticism by guide dog schools and "blindness professionals"
>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>> whether a guide dog would benefit me or not.  A lot of people
>>>>>>>>>>>> with my
>>>>>>>>>>>> condition function well without a cane or a dog so would this be
>>>>>>>>> used
>>>>>>>>>>>> against me if I were to apply?

>>>>>>>>>>>> I am looking forward to hearing your responses and advice.

>>>>>>>>>>>> Melissa
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:

>>>>>>>>> 
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rebecca.pickre
ll%40tasc.com


>>>>>>>>>>>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message and any attachments or
>>>>>>>>>>>> files
>>>>>>>>>>>> transmitted with it (collectively, the "Message") are intended
>>>>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> the addressee and may contain information that is privileged,
>>>>>>>>>> proprietary
>>>>>>>>>>>> and/or prohibited from disclosure by law or contract.  If you 
are
>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> intended recipient: (a) please do not read, copy or retransmit
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> Message; (b) permanently delete and/or destroy all electronic
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> hard
>>>>>>>>>>>> copies of the Message; (c) notify us by return email; and (d)
>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>> hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying
>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> Message is strictly prohibited.

>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
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>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:

>>>>>>>>> 
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%40sbcglobal.net


>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
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>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:

>>>>>>>>> 
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ast.net

>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
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>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:

>>>>>>>>> 
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40epamail.epa.gov




>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
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>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:

>>>>>>>>> 
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izon.net




>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
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>>>>>>>>> for
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40epamail.epa.gov





>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
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>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
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>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>> 
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comcast.net


>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
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>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nagdu:
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tream.net



>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for
>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>> 
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ll%40tasc.com
>>>>>>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message and any attachments or 
files
>>>>>>> transmitted with it (collectively, the "Message") are intended 
only
>>>>>>> for the addressee and may contain information that is 
privileged,
>>>>>>> proprietary and/or prohibited from disclosure by law or 
contract.  If
>>>>>>> you are not the intended recipient: (a) please do not read, copy 
or
>>>>>>> retransmit the Message; (b) permanently delete and/or destroy 
all
>>>>>>> electronic and hard copies of the Message; (c) notify us by 
return
>>>>>>> email; and (d) you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
>>>>>>> distribution or copying of the Message is strictly prohibited.

>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for
>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>> 
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rr.com


>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
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>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>> 
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ll%40tasc.com

>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
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>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>> 
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tream.net


>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> 
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>>>> 
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>>> nagdu:
>>> 
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40frontier.com


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