[nagdu] success at training
Star Gazer
pickrellrebecca at gmail.com
Fri Sep 13 18:20:35 UTC 2013
Mary,
Can you explain a bit? How do you know these people weren't able to care for
themselves?
I'm curious to know what exactly you are trying to say, and how you'd know
that based on limited contact with a classmate?
We've all known people who may rely more on others then is probably good for
them. The girl that doesn't understand finance so has her parents pay her
bills, the boy who goes home so mom can cook for him, that sort of thing.
Most of these sorts of people function just fine in society.
Where is the line between "I sure wouldn't do it that way" and "He/she can't
care for himself so shouldn't have a dog?"
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mary Wurtzel
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 8:10 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] success at training
Hello,
Yes, I had spoken about dogs being given to people who were not able to care
for themselves, let alone a guide dog. Then I was concerned because I do
believe all efforts should be made to help someone with a successful
training. Mary -----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie McGinnity
Sent: Monday, August 26, 2013 8:14 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] success at training
Hi all, I believe Marry is referring to the discussion we had about
admissions standards for guide dog schools. It is a tough discussion and a
complicated topic.
On 8/26/13, Tina Thomas <judotina48kg at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello Mary- What about the board meeting concerned you?
> Tina
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mary
> Wurtzel
> Sent: Monday, August 26, 2013 12:24 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: [nagdu] success at training
>
> I was a bit concerned after our board meeting call last night.
>
> I am the last one to want anyone to lose out on their chance to have a
> guide dog. I was sent home from one school, and my present school did
> more than I could ever ask to help me be successful.
> Mary
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Shanna
> Stichler
> Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2013 5:58 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Over here command
>
> Darla, the dogs pick it up really quickly. I never actually formally
taught
> this. I just guided them with the leash the first couple times, and
> they figured it out right away. I do use "over here," or "switch,"
> in Diamond's case, with revolving doors, of course.
>
> Shanna and Diamond
> On 8/24/2013 1:38 PM, Darla Rogers wrote:
>> I like that; GDA didn't get a chance to show us what they want, but I
>> believe I understand this technique, and it makes sense on how it
>> works without changing your line of gravel that much or the dog's;
>> the pirouette just drove me nuts.
>> Darla
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Shanna
>> Stichler
>> Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 4:37 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Over here command
>>
>> OK, let me see if I can explain what I do. This may not be like TSE
>> does
> it,
>> but I think it is similar.
>>
>> I work the dog up to the door, of course, and then if the door opens
> toward
>> us, I'll drop the harness handle and give the dog a little bit of space.
> As
>> I'm pulling the door toward me, I'm backing up, and the dog is moving
>> with me. When I have opened it wide enough, I turn so that my back is
>> actually against the door, so I'm basically propping it open with my
>> back, if that makes sense. I then just tell the dog "let's go,"
>> and she pivots around me and goes through the doorway, still at my
>> left side. It sounds incredibly complicated now that I'm writing it
>> down. lol
> But
>> it's not really. Anyway, once the dog has gone through the door,
>> which I'm still holding open with my right hand, I move away, the
>> door closes, and
> we
>> go. I always let the dog have enough slack in the leash that she is
> slightly
>> ahead of me when she comes through the doorway, so there is no chance
> she'll
>> get her tail caught or anything like that. I think I sort of came up
>> with this method one day when I had a ton of stuff to carry, and
>> couldn't
> figure
>> out how to get the dog to switch sides without dropping everything.
>>
>> Hope this helps, kind of. :D
>> Shanna and Diamond
>> On 8/23/2013 10:21 AM, Deanna Lewis wrote:
>>> Hi Shanna,
>>> When you were talking about the doors and the command "over here" it
>>> got
>> me thinking. You said that the way you did it was like Seeing Eye
>> does,
> but
>> what is their technique? What do other schools teach for having the
>> dog
> move
>> to the right side so that you can open a door when the hinges are on
>> the left side? So that you can heal the dog through without them
>> getting hit
> by
>> the door. I hope this makes sense /smiles/.
>>> I feel that I am pretty lenient with Pascal, since he is my first dog.
>> But, I want to be more strict with my successor dogs. Pascal has very
>> good behavior, but he is also a bit spoiled! And he's very stubborn!
>>> Deanna and Pascal
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Shanna
>>> Stichler
>>> Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 1:40 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Changing the rules when you get home (was I'm
>>> back)
>>>
>>> With my program dogs, I think I stuck to the school rules at first
>>> for
>> each one. Once I got to know the dog better, then I deviated from
>> those guidelines when I needed to. I have never used GDB's "over here"
>>> command, which is when the dog switches sides in order to go through
> doors
>> opening toward the team. I found that it just wasn't practical for
>> me, so
> I
>> came up with a method that sounds pretty similar to what TSE uses,
> actually.
>> :D I also did clicker work with my dogs, and this was before GDB was
>> using clicker training in their program. Oh, and I always, always
>> switched their food to something I liked better.
>>> I think mostly, the schools have all these rules because they want
>>> to
>> cover every possible eventuality, if that makes sense. Mostly,
>> they're
> sound
>> enough, but it's fine to come up with different methods that work
>> better
> for
>> us when we get home. JMO though, of course.
>>> Shanna and Diamond
>>> On 8/22/2013 3:26 PM, Shannon Dyer wrote:
>>>> This is really sound advice, Tracy. While in class, we are in a
> controled
>> environment. Therefore, the school rules can and do work for us.
>> However, once we get home, and our dogs have to function in the
>> environment we're used to, things can change.
>>>> Like you, I stopped doing the door thing pretty quickly after
>>>> coming
> home
>> with each of my dogs. I've also never understood heeling the dog off
>> a
> bus.
>> Too much of a chance of injury, IMO.
>>>> Shannon and Ace
>>>> On Aug 22, 2013, at 11:20 AM, "Tracy Carcione"
>>>> <carcione at access.net>
>> wrote:
>>>>> I usually change the rules when I get home, if I find the school
>>>>> rules
>> aren't working for me. I say, give the school rules a fair try,
>> because they may have some real value, but chuck them if they don't
>> work
> for me.
>>>>> One example is what I think of as the TSE pirouette, a maneuver
>>>>> for
>> opening a door and going through it with the dog. I gave it a fair
>> try at the school, but shortly after I got home I went back to the
>> way I'd been doing things and totally forgot it.
>>>>> Another example is that, many years ago, GDB taught that I should
>>>>> heel
>> the dog off of a bus. I did that, until I stepped into a hole, or
>> smashed into a pole right outside the door--I'm sure both these
>> things happened--then I decided it was a stupid thing to do and have
>> worked the
> dog
>> off the bus ever since.
>>>>> IMO, while many of the rules I've been taught in class do have
>>>>> value,
>> some others seem to have been made up by people with no practical
> experience
>> in the world I live in, and I will use my good judgement to decide
>> which
> are
>> which.
>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sheila Leigland"
>>>>> <sleigland at bresnan.net>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 3:11 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] I'm back
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> hi lyn well stated. I know a handler that goes out of the way to
>>>>>> do
>> everything differently than the school trains to do. I do know that
>> some things work better for some dogs than others but the principles
>> are still the same.
>>>>>> On 8/21/2013 11:41 AM, L Gwizdak wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi Chantel,
>>>>>>> I don't think Jenny said that ALL Pilot grads were idiots. LOL!
>>>>>>> I've
>> seen my share of poor handlers since 1971! they came from all schools.
>> Part of what I've seen is that grads will sometimes decide that the
>> school is full of crap when the school asks you to do things in a
>> certain way
> when
>> you get home with a new dog. the grad blows off the school and does
> things
>> as they please - not realizing that the school tells you things
>> because
> they
>> do really know better what has worked and not worked for grads when
>> they
> get
>> home.
>>>>>>> At TSE, EVERYTHING done has a purpose! Even the simple things
>>>>>>> like
>> going to the dining room for meals. At lunch time, all the employees
>> and guests have lunch with us during the week. For us students, they
>> have us come in after the staff and guests are already eating and
>> they are seated near the door in the first section of the dining
>> room. We are required to work our dogs past these tables with people
>> eating at them. This arrangement sets up a situation that we will
>> find when we go to
> restaurants.
>> Every day, we are practicing how to work the dogs in a restaurant
>> type setting. In lecture, our dogs are in harness and lying quietly
>> at our
> feet.
>> This is like if wwe were at a meeting we would go to when we get home.
>>>>>>> I do think some schools are more thorouogh in some things than
>>>>>>> other
>> schools. I see that some other schools do not place a premium on
>> getting dogs out of the way when we are sitting in a meeting where we
>> sit at
> tables.
>> Some of the dog users just let their dogs lie on the floor in the way
> where
>> they get tripped over. The Seeing Eye is a real stickler on this
>> issue of making sure our dogs are out of the way - under chairs or
>> the table where they will not be tripped over.
>>>>>>> But many problems are from lax handling by new users AND
>>>>>>> long-time
>> handlers because they don't think about what they are doing.
>>>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>>>> "Asking who's the man and who's the woman in an LGBT
>>>>>>> relationship is like asking which chopstick is the fork" -
>>>>>>> Unknown
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chantel Cuddemi"
>>>>>>> <jawsgirl87 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 11:59 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] I'm back
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jenny,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am a Pilot grad, and I went through the achievement walk
>>>>>>>> twice, and I had to stay for extra training.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So, are you saying that all Pilot grads are idiots? Pilot's
>>>>>>>> name is engraved on Motley's harness.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Chantel and Motley.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Snow
>>>>>>>> White Dove
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 2:20 PM
>>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>> Users
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] I'm back
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I got Shasta at Pilot.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I was and am astounded by their training of their dogs and
>>>>>>>> their
>> students.
>>>>>>>> I know they have a fowl reputation. but when I was there, I
>>>>>>>> saw
> why.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There were a couple of women ther that never should've gotten
>>>>>>>> their dogs because they didn't have to go through the full
>>>>>>>> achievement walk to determine whether they are fit for a dog.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Basically what I'm trying to say, politely, but truthfully is,
>>>>>>>> that the reputation of Pilot is marred only by the idiots they
>>>>>>>> let go home with dogs they sshouldn't have giving to people.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For any questions on the details of this opinion. Please email
>>>>>>>> me off list so as to not clutter the list.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I just have to say this. Pilot is, in my opinion, being
>>>>>>>> considered a less than desirable school ecause of the idiots
>>>>>>>> that are seen because they're obviously not suited to have a
>>>>>>>> dog and
>> Pilot's name is on that harness.
>>>>>>>> No one sees Pilot on the harnesses of those who handle their
>>>>>>>> dogs well and just blend in.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Anyway, I'm done gushing over my experiences. Please don't
>>>>>>>> feel offended by anything I might have said.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If I've overstepped my bounds with the moderators. Please know
>>>>>>>> that apologize.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jenny
>>>>>>>> On Aug 19, 2013, at 7:34 PM, Marsha Drenth
>>>>>>>> <marsha.drenth at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Jenny,
>>>>>>>>> congratulations!
>>>>>>>>> What an interesting name..Where did you get Mr Shasta? I don't
>>>>>>>>> remember
>>>>>>>> what school you apply to. Sorry.
>>>>>>>>> May you both have many years of wonderful working relationship
>> together.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Marsha drenth
>>>>>>>>> Sent with my IPhone
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Aug 19, 2013, at 7:02 PM, Snow White Dove
>>>>>>>>> <jlperdue3 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Wanted to write to tell you all that I finally did it. I
>>>>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>>> Cynprobably let you guys know already, but I figured I'd write
>> myself.
>>>>>>>>>> I came home August 9th with an English Black lab named Shasta.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> He's a wonderful worker and has a great personality, but boy
>>>>>>>>>> I wasn't
>>>>>>>> sure of the personality part in the beginning or whether I
>>>>>>>> could handle him at all.
>>>>>>>>>> If he had not been on leash I think he'd have bounced off the
>>>>>>>>>> walls all
>>>>>>>> on his own steam.
>>>>>>>>>> He settled down, and things are pretty cool now, but being 19
>>>>>>>>>> months old,
>>>>>>>> he's a chewer. I've had him on leash since I got him, and
>>>>>>>> everything was fine till I got home with my brand new leather
>>>>>>>> leash which he chewed in half in a perfectly streight line in
>>>>>>>> two
>> seconds flat.
>>>>>>>>>> Needless to say, I was embarrassed to call the school to
>>>>>>>>>> order a new
>>>>>>>> leash, but more embarrassed when the head trainer answered the
>>>>>>>> phone. He was cool about it, well for him, and said to give him
>>>>>>>> a couple of weeks to get more leashes as theyn were out.
>>>>>>>>>> I'm hoping they'll just give me a new one, but I don't think
>>>>>>>>>> I'll be that
>>>>>>>> lucky.
>>>>>>>>>> Also, he appears to be a dog, but is a beaver. He eats
>>>>>>>>>> anything wooden
>>>>>>>> outside, and I can't seem to break him of it. I've said no,
>>>>>>>> leash corrections, drop it and removed sticks and twigs from
>>>>>>>> his
>> mouth. ug.
>>>>>>>>>> Hope to hear from you guys soon. I just did a mass delete
>>>>>>>>>> before I wrote
>>>>>>>> you all, so if you wrote me about Shasta, please forgive me and
>>>>>>>> send it again.
>>>>>>>>>> Have a great day.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Jenny
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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--
Julie McG
National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation
of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of
Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For
God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who
believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life."
John 3:16
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