[nagdu] An Introduction

[Raven Tolliver]

Hi Valerie,
Welcome to the list! I'm Raven, a college chick from West Michigan. I
entered the dog training world last summer, almost a year after I
attended GEB to obtain my first guide dog, a male golden retriever by
request. I was incredibly inspired by my training experience with the
Golden Guy. After spending a month in NY, I put the Golden Guy through
more training sessions to teach him what I expected of him. I worked
with him on finding trash cans, countertops in restaurants and stores,
off-leash obedience, food refusal, and extended stays with
distractions. Throughout the process of this training as well as
during my partnership with my golden, many people complimented me for
having such a well-behaved dog and that they wished their dog was as
good as mine. This inspired me to help people with having the
well-behaved dogs they wanted. So I started training dogs at the local
animal shelter using force-free methods only. I was welcomed with open
arms, and viewed as an asset. All the employees and families looking
to adopt thought I would be a natural at interacting with dogs and
picking up on their body language since I had experience working a
guide dog. I often had an audience when I would train dogs, and the
head of staff usually had new trainees and dog attendants come work
with me or just watch me to learn.
I too would love to train a golden of my own one day to be my guide
dog. As a person who is a natural health enthusiast, I would like to
avoid getting a guide from a program again just because I am
diametrically opposed to conventional rearing and most modern medical
practices. There is not yet a guide dog program, or any service dog
program, that I know of that naturally rears their animals so I would
love to have the experience of a naturally-reared guide dog. My
current guide dog experienced minor health issues due to the poisons
he was given in the forms of pesticides, kibble, and vaccinations, and
I now eschew and avoid those things.
Again, welcome! Hope you enjoy the great discussions here.

On 8/21/14, Tami Jarvis via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Hi, Valerie, and welcome to the list.
>
> I'm Tami from Oregon, and I am working my 8-year-old owner-trained
> poodle guide Mitzi. I have a 17-week-old male poodle Loki in training to
> take over for her when she retires in a couple of years. Poodles also
> mature more slowly than other large dog breeds, so I'm not planning to
> put him to work until he is at least 2. If Mitzi wants to keep working
> past her 10th birthday, that will be fine, too, as it will give Loki
> more time to mature. Keeping both of them busy and entertained will keep
> me fit, if nothing else. /lol/
>
> I got Mitzi as a 7-month-old blank slate. She had been pack-raised on a
> small acreage, so that was a great psychological foundation for her.
> Bringing a wild mustang poodle to a city apartment was, well,
> interesting, and I despaired she would ever learn to be calm enough to
> take anywhere, but she finally grew up. Whew! Everybody kept telling me
> that blind people can't train dogs, can't train their own guides,
> poodles can't be trained, they sure can't be trained for that, etc.
> Poodles were even less plentiful as guides than they are now, so for the
> first couple of years, going around with her meant answering a lot of
> questions over and over and over... /lol/ She was also my first guide,
> so I learned to ignore all the people who insisted that unless one is
> taught by the proper authorities, one can not possibly figure out how to
> use a guide dog. Sigh. I got a lot of helpful advice from guide dog
> users and other owner-trainers and discovered it's not so impossible
> after all.
>
> Poodles are considered hard to train by some, but I find them almost too
> easy. I use positive reinforcement, so teaching a new behavior is a
> matter of naming it while the dog is doing it anyway, then demonstrating
> the cue for him to do it again and then he has it. Then after awhile, I
> ask him to do it somewhere else and then wait awhile and ask him
> somewhere else. I did try using more traditional repetitions for a
> couple of things with Mitzi, and that did not work out! I guess she
> figured I didn't want what she was doing the first time or two, so she
> stopped doing that and tried other things. So I no longer do repetitions
> with poodles! /lol/
>
> Oregon doesn't have a provision for access for trainers with dogs in
> training, so I will be working around that with public access training.
> With Mitzi, I just made arrangements at local shops, and folks were
> really great about graspoing what I was doing and why. I was in a great
> city neighborhood then, but it's trickier here because I don't have so
> many likely spots in easy walking distance. We've taken him a couple of
> times to an outdoor eatery to practice lying under my chair or the table
> while we eat. There's a lot of parvo in the ground here, apparently, so
> I've decided to play it safe and put off taking him out of the yard much
> until he is fully protected, which will be next week. Yay! He hasn't
> really started outgrowing the compliant puppy phase, so we should get
> some good foundation work in before he loses his brains and is too cool
> for rules.
>
> I haven't planned on getting a vest, although we will see when I find
> some businesses to take him to. Since they are not required to let us
> train on their premises, if they want the vest, then I will get the
> vest. I personally don't think it communicates anything useful, and
> folks can see the cane and that I am working with him as well without
> it. Theoretically. There are folks who can't figure out that a blind
> person with a working guide dog in harness is a blind person with a
> working guide in harness, so I don't expect much from those types either
> way. /shrug/ I prefer to answer questions in person when they come up
> anyway.
>
> We had a great dog park for Mitzi's doggy socialization and for running.
> Here, Loki can just run in the yard with his sisters to get his energy
> out, and I'm considering a puppy obedience class or some such for more
> socialization with stranger dogs. Only when I ask around from dog people
> about such classes, they seem to assume I don't know how to train my pup
> and lecture me on how to do it, so I find that off-putting. /lol/ We'll
> see. I have some names to follow up on, and we will see what happens.
>
> Good luck with Zion.
>
> Tami
>
>
>
> On 08/21/2014 12:06 AM, Valerie Gibson via nagdu wrote:
>> Hi,
>> My name is Valerie Gibson.
>>
>> I subscribed to this list about a week ago and have been silently
>> observing the topics discussed lately.
>>
>> I am totally blind and am in college.
>>
>> I posted an email to the students list that I will post here because it
>> was recommended that I do so, and I think you guys might find it pretty
>> cool.
>>
>> A few years back, I brought up a debatable topic--dog training.
>>
>> I tried to apply      for a dog training school and was denied on the
>> basis of blindness.  This sparked a debate of sorts: Can a blind person
>> train a dog?
>> I responded to a discussion post about guide dogs and training, and with
>> that in mind, I'd like to reintroduce this topic, and give you a peek into
>> what I've been doing and my accomplishments.  I'd also like to hear your
>> thoughts on the matter, and maybe some of you might have questions,
>> criticisms, or words of caution, all of which are fine.
>> I'm also going to talk about why i decided to do what I've been doing.
>> Understand though that just because I do this does not mean that everyone
>> should. I just thought I'd take this on, and it's working. I pray it stays
>> that way.
>> So, dog truing...
>> I've always loved it since I was a kid.  I love learning how animals think
>> and learn.  I love studying animal behavior through written observations
>> and applying ecology, sociology and psychology of animals to this.
>> My outlook on dogs is this: Dogs are not people. They are not furry
>> children. They are beings who speak a different language, share a
>> different culture and have a different mindset that we do.  Dogs don't
>> just need a leader, they want one, and some more than others.  Even a soft
>> tempered dog will try to take over leadership position if it feels there
>> is no one to guide it. Hard tempered dogs will try more forcefully to take
>> over this spot, because their mothers or other "leaders" were made of
>> sterner stuff.
>> I don't want to bore you with a dog training guide, but that's just the
>> tip of the ice burg for my philosophy.
>> Last december, I purchased a seven and a half week old akita puppy in the
>> hopes that I could train it as a guide dog.  I have my reasons for wanting
>> the akita.
>> The easiest way to get a guide dog would obviously be going to a school.
>> Let me say first that I am, in no way, opposed to guide dog schools.
>> Having never been to one, I can not make a judgement call on their
>> training methods, but given that there are many schools, there are
>> probably just as many training methods for their dogs.
>> I didn't, not, go with a school because I wanted to go rogue and didn't
>> want to follow their rules, though I think some of the rules (from what
>> i've heard) are unnecessary.  Again, having never been to a school, I
>> would like to add that that that can be taken with a grain of sault.
>> I think guide dog schools are great for people who are taking on a dog for
>> the first time or for people who just don't want to put in the time and
>> effort in training their dogs to guide, or for people who simply don't
>> know how.  I applaud guide dog trainers for their work in training tens of
>> dogs at a time to go with handlers who have various life styles.
>> So if training a guide dog would be harder, take up more time, and cost
>> more money than just getting one from a school, why not get one from a
>> school?
>> First I understand dog psychology and how to train a dog.  Every trainer
>> has their own philosophy, so mine might be different from your's for
>> example.  I also wanted to see if I could do it. If Zion did not become a
>> guide dog, no big deal. At least he would be a very well behaved house
>> pet.  So I wasn't hell bent on this dog becoming a guide dog.
>> So a week before christmas, I brought home this akita puppy.  I made sure
>> that the breeder gave me one with the temperament that I was wanting
>> rather than it's appearance.
>> Zion's training began the moment I brought him home with crate training
>> and overall good house manners.  He never got any extra privileges until
>> he'd proven to respond favorable to the ones he had.  For example, he
>> stayed in his crate unless he was playing or training. Never did he get to
>> run around the house.  Every three hours, even if he was sleeping, he was
>> made to take a potty break.  This often meant me setting an alarm to make
>> sure that I got up.  It's a good thing I was on christmas break from
>> school. :)
>> Once he let me know when he had to go out, and as he grew, his potty
>> breaks were at longer intervals.  Once he could entertain himself in his
>> kennel, he was allowed to entertain himself in one room of my house, and
>> for only half an hour.
>> Slowly he got more and more privileges.  When he was a puppy and hardly
>> had any rights in the home, I would let anyone pet him when we were in
>> public.
>> What you have to understand is that akitas are very hard to train. They an
>> be trained, and yes, labs and goldens and german shepherds are easier, but
>> I knew what I was dealing with when I took on an akita.  I believe in
>> trainability, they rank number 48. They learn slower than a lab or
>> retriever, and if not handled correctly, they can be aggressive to other
>> dogs and people. They have a natural instinct to guard and protect and
>> often times, they have a mind of their own. Training an akita is very
>> different than training a lab or retriever.  I do not believe in the
>> training method that one size fits all, so the way I'd train an akita is
>> probably not the way I'd train a lab, retriever, brittany, etc.
>> Akitas also reach physical and psychological maturation a year or so later
>> than a lab or retriever.  Akitas are not for the novic dog owner also.
>> You, HAVE, to know what you're doing when you work with these dogs.
>> Again, if trained incorrrectly, or if they don't see you as the leader, it
>> won't go well for you.  Akitas are also prone to health conditions if you
>> don't breed responsibly or purchase from a reputable breeder.
>> When I started training Zion, i got a lot of frowns (and I'm sure some eye
>> rolling) from both blind and sighted people.
>> I stopped going to a puppy obedience class for personal reasons on my part
>> and medical reasons on the part of the dog By the time I stopped going to
>> a puppy socialization class, I'd gotten down the basics and was going to
>> teach my dog on my own.
>> Zion went with me almost everywhere, and he hung out almost entirely with
>> guide dogs.  I used a dog that I'd previously trained to teach him
>> commands, because it was a very quick way for him to learn.  He learned a
>> lot from the guide dogs too.  When he was three months, he was potty
>> trained, and he could lie under tables at restaurants and not be a bother
>> (though I'm sure the fellow dogs under the table with him would
>> disagree.).
>> Allow me to take a quick detour in the writing.
>> There's a lot of hype about people taking their pets, buying a "service
>> dog in training" patch and some "documentation", and claiming their dog's
>> a service dog.  This royally ticks me off, probably more than i t would
>> for you who has a guide dog.
>> It gives people like me a bad name because I've got about just as much
>> resource to back it up as they do, with the addition that my dog speaks
>> for himself.  For another, I've put a lot of time into this dog's
>> training. For another, this dog has cost me roughly 3 thousand dollars
>> right now, and he's only mine months, and that's not including the medical
>> issues we've been battling.  I completely understand and agree with
>> service dog trainer's feelings when it comes to this issue because I know
>> they're putting more money and work into the dogs than I am.
>> I've heard that soon businesses will have a legal right to see
>> documentation on service animals, and I agree with this. If it were
>> possible to provide documentation to show that my dog is indeed a service
>> dog in training, you'd better believe I'd jump on that immediately.
>> Now that that is said, I took zion almost everywhere with me.  As his
>> restrictions got less and less at home, they got stricter in public.  Now,
>> people had to ask me to pet him, and they could only do so if he sat down
>> politely.
>> When he was about seven months, he began to wear a harness with "service
>> dog in training" patches on each side of it.  By this time, he was used to
>> going places with me, and he knew what I expected out of him.  Did that
>> mean that he did not test me? Absolutely not!
>> He wore the harness at first to get used to the feel of it, but he was
>> still walked on leash.  At night, when no one was around, i walked him up
>> and down the corridors of my apartment to teach him what it would feel
>> like for someone to be holding onto the harness.  Luckily the apartment
>> has pretty distinct left and right turns, and even at nine months, we're
>> still working on those.
>> The first break through for me came on August second.  I'd let him guide
>> me before to the train station or to the front office, but I always had my
>> cane out.  This time, I was not going to use my cane at all.
>> Dangerous? sure, but if i didn't give him, and myself, a test, how would I
>> know what he'd learned.
>> Apart from getting distracted a few times, he led me to the train, guiding
>> me around planters and pausing at stairs.
>> I knew that this didn't mean that he could guide me anywhere. It just
>> meant he had the idea of what he was supposed to do.
>> If things are too distracting for him, I'd never let him do that, but if I
>> feel that he can work and there are not too many distractions, I will
>> trust him to guide me.  I will never put him in a situation where he would
>> fail as a guide because he is still in the learning and correcting phase.
>> That's another thing. Having never had a guide dog before, it was my
>> responsibility to have trust in my training and in him, and that was a big
>> step for me too.
>> Since then, zion has guided me to the front office of my apartment, to the
>> train, to walmart, to petco and back to my apartment.  These are places
>> that I know really well, so it's easy for me to correct him when I know
>> he's made a wrong turn or is distracted.  Zion can find petco better than
>> I can with a cane. Imagine that. :)
>> At some point soon, I am hoping to get certified with the association of
>> professional dog Trainers so that I can train other people dogs and maybe
>> see if the NFB can't have a national association of blind dog trainers.
>> :)
>> This certification would also give me some credibility in the work that he
>> will be doing.  Right now, it's very difficult to find a trainer who will
>> back you if you're a blind person training your own dog.  Throw on a
>> "service dog" title, and it's almost impossible.The only thing that I
>> would not train when it comes to dogs is dogs with aggression issues.  I
>> think that this is where a blind person must draw the line.  Dogs
>> communicate through body language, and it's easy to tell what body
>> language the dog is giving off but with aggression, you need to know, and
>> you can't afford to make a wrong move.  One could argue that a growl is a
>> sign of aggression, but that's not always the case, and if it is, the dog
>> has given off a few body signals before the growl that a trainer must
>> notice.  You never want to get to a point where your dog feels the need to
>> growl because that's usually the last signal it will give before
>> snapping.
>> I'd be interested to hear any feedback from dog lovers.  If anyone has any
>> questions, I'd be eager to try and answer them, but I i do not have all
>> the answers.  Zion's training is no where near finished, but even sighted
>> people tell me: "he's come a long way as a puppy."  I once was told by
>> someone that they had reservations that I was really training him as a
>> guide dog, but they can see thahaht he would make a good guide dog.
>> If anyone has trained their own guide dog, please email me. I'd love to
>> hear of your experiences, and throw around some ideas on how best to
>> train.  If there are any sighted dog trainers who'd be willing to think
>> outside the box in regards to a blind person training their own dog, I'd
>> be honored to hear from you.
>>
>> Thanks for taking the time to read this, and I hope it was enlightening
>> and not too boring. :)
>>
>> If you want me to keep you posted on Zion's training, I can do that.
>>
>> Everyone have a good rest of the day and good luck in school next
>> semester. :)
>>
>> Thank you for reading my Not so brief introduction. :)
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-- 
Raven
"if God didn't make it, don't eat it." - John B. Symes, D.V.M.
http://dogtorj.com