[nagdu] An Introduction

[The Pawpower Pack]

Valerie, 
This is interesting about the Akita.  He sounds a great deal like Gracy, my now retired Border Collie guide.
I have about  5 hours of video of Soleil working through different situations. I keep it because if I ever filed a civil rights complaint against a business, I would want something to show a judge the process of her training. In these kinds of situations, people from the guide dog program will often come testify if a program trained guide dog team has a case, but because I am the trainer, I have lots  and lots of video, just as a precaution. 
 
Rox'E  and the kitchen Bitches: 
Mill'E, Laveau, Soleil
Pawpower4me at gmail.com
Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 22, 2014, at 2:49 AM, Valerie Gibson via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi guys,
> 
> Thank you all or the support and hearty welcome!
> 
> To answer a couple of questions that I caught...
> 
> I chose an akita because, while I love all dogs, I'm drawn to the akita.  I had one as a child, and he ended up becoming a "family pet".   I wouldn't call my relationship with him as perfect.  I was 12 and didn't entire understand the breed.  He was stubborn becaue, due to circomstance beyond a tween's control, we had to move around and never finished his training.  
> 
> There's just something magetic about the akita, and even sighted people say so.  They're quiet, unless given a reason to bark. They're loyal.  They love children.  I know it sounds crazy, but they're noble.  It's like they demand respect and respect authority when properly given.
> 
> Keep in mind, i have nothing wrong with labs or retrievers, but for me, I want a dog who's going to listen to my commands alone.  
> 
> There are times when we're walking in a store, and someone's trying to whistle to my dog or make kissy noises at him.  When Zion was younger, he would just have to say hello, but as he gows older, he couldn't care less.  His only weakness is children.  It is said that as las and goldens have an afinity with balls, so does the akita with children, and it couldn't be more true.  If he hears a child cry, he simply must go over and try to comfort the child.  When a child is standing away from his or her parents, it's that child that he has to go to and say "hi".  As a thre month old puppy on our way to a puppy play time, he led me into a homeless shelter for youth.  There was no food or anything like that to draw him to the shelter, but for whatever reason, he wanted to go inside.  Rather than wag his tail and beg for attention, he sat there and let the kids/young adults come up to him.  For the first time, I felt as if he was doing all the work, and I was the amazed bystander because these kids needed him.  I could tell that their day was just a bit brighter for having shared it with him...not me, but him.
> 
> Zion doesn't trouble himself with the confident, but he seems to have an eye for the outcast or distressed.  That's not to say he doesn't love attention from others.  It's just that, voleontarily he'll go to those people who don't seem to fit in.  It's actually kind of astounding how he does this.  
> 
> I can always trust his insight.  I always know who has a dog at home, because he loves to get attention from such people.  Sometimes, someone will walk by me.  They won't say a word to me, but Zion wants absolutely nothing to do with them.  If a person such as this tries to get close to him, he'l back away, but he won't growl.  If the peron is actively showing signs of violence, be it speech or otherwise, he'll turn toward that person and bark at them.  
> 
> This portrayal of zion that I have given is why I chose an akita.  I love having a service dog, but more than that, I love feeling safe with him, and I know he feels safe with me.  I'm a small person, so that might have a bit to do with it.
> 
> I hoep to go into elementary school education, and having a dog that loves children as much as he does is a great asset.  Since he seems to have an afinity for the child who stands out from the rest, he might be able to help me find children who must might need a friend.  Because I live in the Denver Metro area, having a dog that makes me feel safe when I'm out and about is another plus.  Labs and retrievers are great breeds, and I'm sure that they do have a protective streak, but they weren't bred for this purpose. Akitas were.  
> 
> With an akita, you cannot train with repetition.  Akitas were bred to guard, protect and hunt bear and boar in the mountainous regions of Japan.  
> 
> So what does this mean for a guide dog?  It means that when hunting, the bear or boar set the pace.  The akita had to adapt to whatever the game was doing, often changing tactics to hunt down such fiercesome game.  Akitas are then bred to think of multiple ways of doing the same thing.  The tricky part is getting the akita to do the same thing all the time. I use his ability to come up with his own ways of doing things to my advantage.  For example, he learned quickly that he needs to find alternative routes around things so that I can go with him.  Often, if we come to an obsticle, I stop, tell him "go around", and I wait for as long as I need to for him to find a way around it.  He's getting much faster at it.
> 
> If I tell zion "down", he may lay down beside me.  If he's destracted and I tell him "down", he may turn to look at his distraction and then lay down. acording to him, he's not breaking any rules because he is doing what I said.  I've just learned to pick my battles with him, because when I really need him to do something right then and there, he's more apt to obey.  This seems like an opposite approach for how the less stubborn dogs are taught, but akitas who are very strong willed, it's just better not to nag when there's really no reason to.  I'm not entering him into any obedience trials, and as long as he does what I want, that's all I care about.  Though, he does know when I'm dead serious and when I'm casual.
> 
> .  There are things that zion knows he can't find a work around for, however.  When we're at the top of stairs, he'll either put one foot on the second step and stop, or stop at the very top.  Either way, he knows that he is not to move if I'm trying to find the stairs.  It's as if he knows my safety is at stake.  Just today, I was carrying groceries, and could not use my cane and walk with him.  I held onto his harness and whereas some times he'd try his tricks to get away with something he shouldn't, he knew this time that he needed to be on point, so to speak.  At one point he stopped.  I knew we weren't by any stairs, and when I felt the pole in front of my face with my hand, he then moved me around it.  What was interesting to me was that he waited for me to find the pole before moving me around it.  I'd never taught him to do that.
> 
> It's really uplifting to me to see a puppy go from a blank slate, seven week old to a dog that actually has to think about what he's doing.
> 
> Because there are so many owner trainers out there, I'd love to see about the NFB having an association for blind dog trainers.  But I don't know how that would even be brought about.  If anyone starts one or knows  how i could start one, let me know and count me in.
> 
> What do you guys think?  I figured I can't be the only person who loves dog training, and I applaud  those trainers who think outside the box in training dogs who are otherwise thought to "not make good guides".  I love the rest of you trainers who train the labs and goldens as well, and some times, I envy you for not having a stubborn dog. :)
> 
> I know someone mentioned an owner trainer list, but I think more action should be taken to show the world that blind people can train dogs, be it service dog or your average pet.  There seems to be all kinds of associations in the NFB for all kinds of jobs and hobbies.  Why not dog training?  
> 
> I know this might not mean much, but I hope to get a vidio of Zion taking me to walmart and to petco, and I'd upload it onto youtube.  It would be a start to show people that a blind person can train their own dog to have a sighted person see it, especially since Zion's not fully trained, they would get to see his flaws and see how I work with him  Then no one can argue that I got him fully trained already.
> 
> If anyone wants to talk training with me, email me off list and I'll give my contact information.  There's not much I like talking about more than dog training.
> I'd be very curious with how you guys trained your dogs.  I'm also curious as to how gude dogs in schools are trained.  Like I said, there's not much more I love talking about than dog training.  
> 
> I think that's all i can think to ramble on about.  I look forward to getting to know you guys further and be provided insight into your own dog training philosophies.  
> For those of you who have guides from schools, never forget or take for granted the people who've trained your dog to get to the point he or she is at.  I don't just mean the dog trainers at the schools, but the puppy raisers, the breeders and even the dogs who more than likely helped teach your dog along the way.  For all of Zion's efforts, the guide dogs of my friends are just as much his trainer as I am.  
> 
> 
> 
>> On Aug 21, 2014, at 4:15 PM, Raven Tolliver via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Valerie,
>> Welcome to the list! I'm Raven, a college chick from West Michigan. I
>> entered the dog training world last summer, almost a year after I
>> attended GEB to obtain my first guide dog, a male golden retriever by
>> request. I was incredibly inspired by my training experience with the
>> Golden Guy. After spending a month in NY, I put the Golden Guy through
>> more training sessions to teach him what I expected of him. I worked
>> with him on finding trash cans, countertops in restaurants and stores,
>> off-leash obedience, food refusal, and extended stays with
>> distractions. Throughout the process of this training as well as
>> during my partnership with my golden, many people complimented me for
>> having such a well-behaved dog and that they wished their dog was as
>> good as mine. This inspired me to help people with having the
>> well-behaved dogs they wanted. So I started training dogs at the local
>> animal shelter using force-free methods only. I was welcomed with open
>> arms, and viewed as an asset. All the employees and families looking
>> to adopt thought I would be a natural at interacting with dogs and
>> picking up on their body language since I had experience working a
>> guide dog. I often had an audience when I would train dogs, and the
>> head of staff usually had new trainees and dog attendants come work
>> with me or just watch me to learn.
>> I too would love to train a golden of my own one day to be my guide
>> dog. As a person who is a natural health enthusiast, I would like to
>> avoid getting a guide from a program again just because I am
>> diametrically opposed to conventional rearing and most modern medical
>> practices. There is not yet a guide dog program, or any service dog
>> program, that I know of that naturally rears their animals so I would
>> love to have the experience of a naturally-reared guide dog. My
>> current guide dog experienced minor health issues due to the poisons
>> he was given in the forms of pesticides, kibble, and vaccinations, and
>> I now eschew and avoid those things.
>> Again, welcome! Hope you enjoy the great discussions here.
>> 
>>> On 8/21/14, Tami Jarvis via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> Hi, Valerie, and welcome to the list.
>>> 
>>> I'm Tami from Oregon, and I am working my 8-year-old owner-trained
>>> poodle guide Mitzi. I have a 17-week-old male poodle Loki in training to
>>> take over for her when she retires in a couple of years. Poodles also
>>> mature more slowly than other large dog breeds, so I'm not planning to
>>> put him to work until he is at least 2. If Mitzi wants to keep working
>>> past her 10th birthday, that will be fine, too, as it will give Loki
>>> more time to mature. Keeping both of them busy and entertained will keep
>>> me fit, if nothing else. /lol/
>>> 
>>> I got Mitzi as a 7-month-old blank slate. She had been pack-raised on a
>>> small acreage, so that was a great psychological foundation for her.
>>> Bringing a wild mustang poodle to a city apartment was, well,
>>> interesting, and I despaired she would ever learn to be calm enough to
>>> take anywhere, but she finally grew up. Whew! Everybody kept telling me
>>> that blind people can't train dogs, can't train their own guides,
>>> poodles can't be trained, they sure can't be trained for that, etc.
>>> Poodles were even less plentiful as guides than they are now, so for the
>>> first couple of years, going around with her meant answering a lot of
>>> questions over and over and over... /lol/ She was also my first guide,
>>> so I learned to ignore all the people who insisted that unless one is
>>> taught by the proper authorities, one can not possibly figure out how to
>>> use a guide dog. Sigh. I got a lot of helpful advice from guide dog
>>> users and other owner-trainers and discovered it's not so impossible
>>> after all.
>>> 
>>> Poodles are considered hard to train by some, but I find them almost too
>>> easy. I use positive reinforcement, so teaching a new behavior is a
>>> matter of naming it while the dog is doing it anyway, then demonstrating
>>> the cue for him to do it again and then he has it. Then after awhile, I
>>> ask him to do it somewhere else and then wait awhile and ask him
>>> somewhere else. I did try using more traditional repetitions for a
>>> couple of things with Mitzi, and that did not work out! I guess she
>>> figured I didn't want what she was doing the first time or two, so she
>>> stopped doing that and tried other things. So I no longer do repetitions
>>> with poodles! /lol/
>>> 
>>> Oregon doesn't have a provision for access for trainers with dogs in
>>> training, so I will be working around that with public access training.
>>> With Mitzi, I just made arrangements at local shops, and folks were
>>> really great about graspoing what I was doing and why. I was in a great
>>> city neighborhood then, but it's trickier here because I don't have so
>>> many likely spots in easy walking distance. We've taken him a couple of
>>> times to an outdoor eatery to practice lying under my chair or the table
>>> while we eat. There's a lot of parvo in the ground here, apparently, so
>>> I've decided to play it safe and put off taking him out of the yard much
>>> until he is fully protected, which will be next week. Yay! He hasn't
>>> really started outgrowing the compliant puppy phase, so we should get
>>> some good foundation work in before he loses his brains and is too cool
>>> for rules.
>>> 
>>> I haven't planned on getting a vest, although we will see when I find
>>> some businesses to take him to. Since they are not required to let us
>>> train on their premises, if they want the vest, then I will get the
>>> vest. I personally don't think it communicates anything useful, and
>>> folks can see the cane and that I am working with him as well without
>>> it. Theoretically. There are folks who can't figure out that a blind
>>> person with a working guide dog in harness is a blind person with a
>>> working guide in harness, so I don't expect much from those types either
>>> way. /shrug/ I prefer to answer questions in person when they come up
>>> anyway.
>>> 
>>> We had a great dog park for Mitzi's doggy socialization and for running.
>>> Here, Loki can just run in the yard with his sisters to get his energy
>>> out, and I'm considering a puppy obedience class or some such for more
>>> socialization with stranger dogs. Only when I ask around from dog people
>>> about such classes, they seem to assume I don't know how to train my pup
>>> and lecture me on how to do it, so I find that off-putting. /lol/ We'll
>>> see. I have some names to follow up on, and we will see what happens.
>>> 
>>> Good luck with Zion.
>>> 
>>> Tami
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On 08/21/2014 12:06 AM, Valerie Gibson via nagdu wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>> My name is Valerie Gibson.
>>>> 
>>>> I subscribed to this list about a week ago and have been silently
>>>> observing the topics discussed lately.
>>>> 
>>>> I am totally blind and am in college.
>>>> 
>>>> I posted an email to the students list that I will post here because it
>>>> was recommended that I do so, and I think you guys might find it pretty
>>>> cool.
>>>> 
>>>> A few years back, I brought up a debatable topic--dog training.
>>>> 
>>>> I tried to apply      for a dog training school and was denied on the
>>>> basis of blindness.  This sparked a debate of sorts: Can a blind person
>>>> train a dog?
>>>> I responded to a discussion post about guide dogs and training, and with
>>>> that in mind, I'd like to reintroduce this topic, and give you a peek into
>>>> what I've been doing and my accomplishments.  I'd also like to hear your
>>>> thoughts on the matter, and maybe some of you might have questions,
>>>> criticisms, or words of caution, all of which are fine.
>>>> I'm also going to talk about why i decided to do what I've been doing.
>>>> Understand though that just because I do this does not mean that everyone
>>>> should. I just thought I'd take this on, and it's working. I pray it stays
>>>> that way.
>>>> So, dog truing...
>>>> I've always loved it since I was a kid.  I love learning how animals think
>>>> and learn.  I love studying animal behavior through written observations
>>>> and applying ecology, sociology and psychology of animals to this.
>>>> My outlook on dogs is this: Dogs are not people. They are not furry
>>>> children. They are beings who speak a different language, share a
>>>> different culture and have a different mindset that we do.  Dogs don't
>>>> just need a leader, they want one, and some more than others.  Even a soft
>>>> tempered dog will try to take over leadership position if it feels there
>>>> is no one to guide it. Hard tempered dogs will try more forcefully to take
>>>> over this spot, because their mothers or other "leaders" were made of
>>>> sterner stuff.
>>>> I don't want to bore you with a dog training guide, but that's just the
>>>> tip of the ice burg for my philosophy.
>>>> Last december, I purchased a seven and a half week old akita puppy in the
>>>> hopes that I could train it as a guide dog.  I have my reasons for wanting
>>>> the akita.
>>>> The easiest way to get a guide dog would obviously be going to a school.
>>>> Let me say first that I am, in no way, opposed to guide dog schools.
>>>> Having never been to one, I can not make a judgement call on their
>>>> training methods, but given that there are many schools, there are
>>>> probably just as many training methods for their dogs.
>>>> I didn't, not, go with a school because I wanted to go rogue and didn't
>>>> want to follow their rules, though I think some of the rules (from what
>>>> i've heard) are unnecessary.  Again, having never been to a school, I
>>>> would like to add that that that can be taken with a grain of sault.
>>>> I think guide dog schools are great for people who are taking on a dog for
>>>> the first time or for people who just don't want to put in the time and
>>>> effort in training their dogs to guide, or for people who simply don't
>>>> know how.  I applaud guide dog trainers for their work in training tens of
>>>> dogs at a time to go with handlers who have various life styles.
>>>> So if training a guide dog would be harder, take up more time, and cost
>>>> more money than just getting one from a school, why not get one from a
>>>> school?
>>>> First I understand dog psychology and how to train a dog.  Every trainer
>>>> has their own philosophy, so mine might be different from your's for
>>>> example.  I also wanted to see if I could do it. If Zion did not become a
>>>> guide dog, no big deal. At least he would be a very well behaved house
>>>> pet.  So I wasn't hell bent on this dog becoming a guide dog.
>>>> So a week before christmas, I brought home this akita puppy.  I made sure
>>>> that the breeder gave me one with the temperament that I was wanting
>>>> rather than it's appearance.
>>>> Zion's training began the moment I brought him home with crate training
>>>> and overall good house manners.  He never got any extra privileges until
>>>> he'd proven to respond favorable to the ones he had.  For example, he
>>>> stayed in his crate unless he was playing or training. Never did he get to
>>>> run around the house.  Every three hours, even if he was sleeping, he was
>>>> made to take a potty break.  This often meant me setting an alarm to make
>>>> sure that I got up.  It's a good thing I was on christmas break from
>>>> school. :)
>>>> Once he let me know when he had to go out, and as he grew, his potty
>>>> breaks were at longer intervals.  Once he could entertain himself in his
>>>> kennel, he was allowed to entertain himself in one room of my house, and
>>>> for only half an hour.
>>>> Slowly he got more and more privileges.  When he was a puppy and hardly
>>>> had any rights in the home, I would let anyone pet him when we were in
>>>> public.
>>>> What you have to understand is that akitas are very hard to train. They an
>>>> be trained, and yes, labs and goldens and german shepherds are easier, but
>>>> I knew what I was dealing with when I took on an akita.  I believe in
>>>> trainability, they rank number 48. They learn slower than a lab or
>>>> retriever, and if not handled correctly, they can be aggressive to other
>>>> dogs and people. They have a natural instinct to guard and protect and
>>>> often times, they have a mind of their own. Training an akita is very
>>>> different than training a lab or retriever.  I do not believe in the
>>>> training method that one size fits all, so the way I'd train an akita is
>>>> probably not the way I'd train a lab, retriever, brittany, etc.
>>>> Akitas also reach physical and psychological maturation a year or so later
>>>> than a lab or retriever.  Akitas are not for the novic dog owner also.
>>>> You, HAVE, to know what you're doing when you work with these dogs.
>>>> Again, if trained incorrrectly, or if they don't see you as the leader, it
>>>> won't go well for you.  Akitas are also prone to health conditions if you
>>>> don't breed responsibly or purchase from a reputable breeder.
>>>> When I started training Zion, i got a lot of frowns (and I'm sure some eye
>>>> rolling) from both blind and sighted people.
>>>> I stopped going to a puppy obedience class for personal reasons on my part
>>>> and medical reasons on the part of the dog By the time I stopped going to
>>>> a puppy socialization class, I'd gotten down the basics and was going to
>>>> teach my dog on my own.
>>>> Zion went with me almost everywhere, and he hung out almost entirely with
>>>> guide dogs.  I used a dog that I'd previously trained to teach him
>>>> commands, because it was a very quick way for him to learn.  He learned a
>>>> lot from the guide dogs too.  When he was three months, he was potty
>>>> trained, and he could lie under tables at restaurants and not be a bother
>>>> (though I'm sure the fellow dogs under the table with him would
>>>> disagree.).
>>>> Allow me to take a quick detour in the writing.
>>>> There's a lot of hype about people taking their pets, buying a "service
>>>> dog in training" patch and some "documentation", and claiming their dog's
>>>> a service dog.  This royally ticks me off, probably more than i t would
>>>> for you who has a guide dog.
>>>> It gives people like me a bad name because I've got about just as much
>>>> resource to back it up as they do, with the addition that my dog speaks
>>>> for himself.  For another, I've put a lot of time into this dog's
>>>> training. For another, this dog has cost me roughly 3 thousand dollars
>>>> right now, and he's only mine months, and that's not including the medical
>>>> issues we've been battling.  I completely understand and agree with
>>>> service dog trainer's feelings when it comes to this issue because I know
>>>> they're putting more money and work into the dogs than I am.
>>>> I've heard that soon businesses will have a legal right to see
>>>> documentation on service animals, and I agree with this. If it were
>>>> possible to provide documentation to show that my dog is indeed a service
>>>> dog in training, you'd better believe I'd jump on that immediately.
>>>> Now that that is said, I took zion almost everywhere with me.  As his
>>>> restrictions got less and less at home, they got stricter in public.  Now,
>>>> people had to ask me to pet him, and they could only do so if he sat down
>>>> politely.
>>>> When he was about seven months, he began to wear a harness with "service
>>>> dog in training" patches on each side of it.  By this time, he was used to
>>>> going places with me, and he knew what I expected out of him.  Did that
>>>> mean that he did not test me? Absolutely not!
>>>> He wore the harness at first to get used to the feel of it, but he was
>>>> still walked on leash.  At night, when no one was around, i walked him up
>>>> and down the corridors of my apartment to teach him what it would feel
>>>> like for someone to be holding onto the harness.  Luckily the apartment
>>>> has pretty distinct left and right turns, and even at nine months, we're
>>>> still working on those.
>>>> The first break through for me came on August second.  I'd let him guide
>>>> me before to the train station or to the front office, but I always had my
>>>> cane out.  This time, I was not going to use my cane at all.
>>>> Dangerous? sure, but if i didn't give him, and myself, a test, how would I
>>>> know what he'd learned.
>>>> Apart from getting distracted a few times, he led me to the train, guiding
>>>> me around planters and pausing at stairs.
>>>> I knew that this didn't mean that he could guide me anywhere. It just
>>>> meant he had the idea of what he was supposed to do.
>>>> If things are too distracting for him, I'd never let him do that, but if I
>>>> feel that he can work and there are not too many distractions, I will
>>>> trust him to guide me.  I will never put him in a situation where he would
>>>> fail as a guide because he is still in the learning and correcting phase.
>>>> That's another thing. Having never had a guide dog before, it was my
>>>> responsibility to have trust in my training and in him, and that was a big
>>>> step for me too.
>>>> Since then, zion has guided me to the front office of my apartment, to the
>>>> train, to walmart, to petco and back to my apartment.  These are places
>>>> that I know really well, so it's easy for me to correct him when I know
>>>> he's made a wrong turn or is distracted.  Zion can find petco better than
>>>> I can with a cane. Imagine that. :)
>>>> At some point soon, I am hoping to get certified with the association of
>>>> professional dog Trainers so that I can train other people dogs and maybe
>>>> see if the NFB can't have a national association of blind dog trainers.
>>>> :)
>>>> This certification would also give me some credibility in the work that he
>>>> will be doing.  Right now, it's very difficult to find a trainer who will
>>>> back you if you're a blind person training your own dog.  Throw on a
>>>> "service dog" title, and it's almost impossible.The only thing that I
>>>> would not train when it comes to dogs is dogs with aggression issues.  I
>>>> think that this is where a blind person must draw the line.  Dogs
>>>> communicate through body language, and it's easy to tell what body
>>>> language the dog is giving off but with aggression, you need to know, and
>>>> you can't afford to make a wrong move.  One could argue that a growl is a
>>>> sign of aggression, but that's not always the case, and if it is, the dog
>>>> has given off a few body signals before the growl that a trainer must
>>>> notice.  You never want to get to a point where your dog feels the need to
>>>> growl because that's usually the last signal it will give before
>>>> snapping.
>>>> I'd be interested to hear any feedback from dog lovers.  If anyone has any
>>>> questions, I'd be eager to try and answer them, but I i do not have all
>>>> the answers.  Zion's training is no where near finished, but even sighted
>>>> people tell me: "he's come a long way as a puppy."  I once was told by
>>>> someone that they had reservations that I was really training him as a
>>>> guide dog, but they can see thahaht he would make a good guide dog.
>>>> If anyone has trained their own guide dog, please email me. I'd love to
>>>> hear of your experiences, and throw around some ideas on how best to
>>>> train.  If there are any sighted dog trainers who'd be willing to think
>>>> outside the box in regards to a blind person training their own dog, I'd
>>>> be honored to hear from you.
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks for taking the time to read this, and I hope it was enlightening
>>>> and not too boring. :)
>>>> 
>>>> If you want me to keep you posted on Zion's training, I can do that.
>>>> 
>>>> Everyone have a good rest of the day and good luck in school next
>>>> semester. :)
>>>> 
>>>> Thank you for reading my Not so brief introduction. :)
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>>> 
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>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Raven
>> "if God didn't make it, don't eat it." - John B. Symes, D.V.M.
>> http://dogtorj.com
>> 
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