[nagdu] Pacing WAS Re: An Introduction
Nicole Torcolini
ntorcolini at wavecable.com
Sat Aug 23 20:50:45 UTC 2014
For me, I need a dog who has a moderate pace. I don't want to walk really
slow, but I don't want to be pulled over either. Lexia can walk fast, but
she also knows when to slow down. There were a few dogs in our class that
were called freight trains. I would not have wanted those dogs.
Nicole
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tami Jarvis via
nagdu
Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2014 10:38 AM
To: Buddy Brannan; NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
Users
Subject: [nagdu] Pacing WAS Re: An Introduction
Buddy,
Glad you brought up Ginger's question. I've been mulling it over and hoping
one of the other OTs would provide me some wisdom on the subject.
It's been much on my mind with Loki of the Long Legs, although I think I
have figured out most of the adaptations I'll be making in training and work
for when he gets to be his big self. Sometimes I just feel his paws and
think "Yikes!" /lol/
In general, I agree with you that environment and training play a big role
in how the dog will work in quite a few ways, including pacing. Or course,
temperament, size and natural gait will also play a role in what speed and
pull the dog will find comfortable and how easily it can adjust to the
handler's preference. So I like my zippy poodle, who can still walk me out
of my shoes if I let her, even though she is slowing some and not needing to
play Speed Racer for miles and miles a day.
/smile/ I also like that she looks ahead and works predictively, so that we
just whiz by and zig and zag around things. Drives the sighties crazy, for
some reason. Watch out, they scream. She almost ran you into that cart! I
suppose they would be as troubled if she slowly almost ran me into that cart
in the path, but they wouldn't have to yell about it as we left them in the
dust? /lol/ There are days when I'm off or sick or something when I need
less speed, and she's pretty good about adjusting to that. When we walk with
our slower friends, she is more likely to get bored and thus sniffy and
distracted. Her mind needs the activity of a fast-paced life as much as her
legs and energy. I can't complain, since when I"m walking slow with folks, I
find myself getting bored and more distractable.
Mitzi's top walking speed is about the same as mine, if I'm willing to
hustle to keep up. With her, I added in pacing later, using her natural go
to motivate her while she learned all the obstacle avoidance and other
facets of guide work. We were doing short jaunts at that point, usually to
the park, so it didn't matter if I arrived a bit out of breath and sweaty.
/smile/ Then, as she phased into real work, we found a pace we were both
comfortable with and that we could both keep up for the long haul. I will
have to do it differently with Loki, or maybe get skates and let him pull
me? /lol/ I realized that starting his basic training while he is still
young and impressionable will make a big difference when we get to more
specific guide training. Mitzi was an adolescent wild child, but Loki will
have heard about manners and obedience by the time he reaches that phase.
He's already very good at heeling, which makes me wonder how I will have to
adapt to train him to go ahead and forward, but that will come.
So that's my long-winded vague and non-definitive answer. /lol/
Tami
On 08/23/2014 06:51 AM, Buddy Brannan via nagdu wrote:
> The last sighted trainer who said much of anything on this list was Doug,
and that was ages ago. Like a couple years, probably. About the closest
person to anyone who works for a guide dog school on the list would be
Jenine Stanley and Ginger Kutsch, and I can guarantee you neither of them
will give anyone a bad time about owner training.
>
> Speaking of, Ginger asked a question a couple weeks ago, to which I
haven't seen an answer. I'm curious to see what other people say about it.
She asked how owner trainers can ensure they get a dog that matches your
particular pace and pull preferences, as that's a big consideration in
matching at guide dog schools, and something they work pretty hard to match.
I have a couple thoughts on this that have absolutely no basis in anything
like, I don't know, experience.
>
> How much of a dog's natural walking speed and amount of pull into the
> harness is based on temperament and genetics, and how much is based on
> upbringing and environment? I, anyway, have no clue, but I suspect
> there's more of it that's based on the latter than the former. That is
> to say, how fast did the puppy raisers walk or expect their dogs to
> walk? How much, and how far ahead, did they allow the puppy to pull
> ahead on the leash? Of course,I suppose some of this*will* be
> personality or genetics, some dogs just have more get up and go than
> others. Still, I'd also suspect that a dog who has been working with
> someone from early days would have a pretty good idea of that person's
> walking speed preferences. Pull seems to be something worked out over
> time. With all three of my dogs, they've started out with often quite
> a strong pull, but over time, it's always moderated to something very
> similar in all three. I've always asked for a dog with a at least
> moderate pull, at
least in part because I like a bit more of that, but in larger part because
it would seem to me that it's easier to get a dog to pull less than to get
him to pull more.
>> >On Aug 23, 2014, at 7:37 AM, Julie J. via nagdu<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
wrote:
>> >
>> >If there are sighted trainers on this list, they never contribute any
posts or haven't in a such a very long time that we've all forgotten about
them. There are a few people who work for or represent various guide dog
programs, but they won't give you a hard time about owner training. Not
everyone on this list is a fan of owner training and they might speak up
about their views, however you won't be put down or disrespected for your
choices. You might be asked questions or someone might explain why they see
things differently, but seriously no one is going to send out the guide dog
police on you.
>> >
>> >You asked why we chose the breeds we did so here goes. Tia was my first
guide. She was a Tennessee Treeing Walker Coonhound. I didn't choose her
because of her breed. I chose to train Tia because she was already in my
home. I didn't want another dog until I knew for sure that I could train a
guide dog. She was my experiment to see if I could train a guide or if I
was off my rocker. Back then I didn't know a single other owner trainer and
the internet was not what it is today.
>> >
>> >Belle was my next guide. She is a lab and something mix. I used to
think greyhound because of her body shape, but in recent years I'm leaning
toward German Shepherd. I chose her because of her temperament. I wanted
a dog who was good with other dogs, cats, was curious about her environment,
easily trained, was okay with all sorts of people etc.
>> >
>> >Monty is my next guide. I am still working him part time as well as
Jetta part time. Monty is a lab and Boxer mix. I wanted a shorter haired
dog this time. I love his work ethic. Even now when he's older, slowing
down and anxious he still wants to go. In harness he is focused on the
work. He does not want to be petted or interact with random people on the
street. I appreciate that.
>> >
>> >Jetta is a Doberman. She was trained by Meghan because I didn't have
the time to devote to her training to do it properly. She has been here
less than a week. I chose the Doberman because it is a working breed. She
isn't into socializing with random people or really much of anyone besides
me. I appreciate her short coat, intelligence, trainability, work ethic,
size, attention to detail, precision and ease of handling. The biggest
challenge with her so far is her testing. Dobermans are a breed who need a
strong leader, but you can't be harsh with them. Once we get the rules
sorted out and she understands what is expected, we'll be good to go, but
until then it feels like a battle of wills. She is a very strong willed
thing! That will be a huge asset in the long run because she won't give in
if I tell her forward when it's the wrong time. Her intelligent obedience
will be well developed or at least that is what I'm told by other Doberman
owners.
>> >
>> >Julie
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >-----Original Message----- From: Valerie Gibson via nagdu
>> >Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 3:41 PM
>> >To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> >Subject: Re: [nagdu] An Introduction
>> >
>> >Hi,
>> >
>> >So far I've tried the approach where I'll use the leash to correct him
while holding the harness when he's destracted. I also don't do a lot of
harness work unless I'm sure he can handle it. It's just some times there's
a dog nearby. I live in a city where it's very common to see dogs with
their owners out and about. If we're in an area where I believe he won't
train as well such as an outdoor mall, I'll just do leash work until we've
built up to that point. I don't know how, but I can usually tell when he's
ready for something a little harder. I may just subcontiously keep track of
his handling of the easier things and move onto harder things gradually
without thinking about it.
>> >
>> >I think the reason I explain myself so much is because I know there must
be sighted trainers here, and due to the discouragement I've gotten since
I've had zion, it's become reflex. I'll try to work on that. :) I'm
actually not used to so much support with this, so defending my methods and
decisions just pops up.
>> >
>> >On a slightly different note, what made you guys train the breeds you
do?
>> >
>> >
>> >On Aug 22, 2014, at 2:10 PM, Julie J.<julielj at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>> >
>>> >>LOL You didn't make me feel meek! I'm just trying to explain to you
that you don't have to explain your decisions. Seriously owner trainers are
really okay with existing outside of the box, so to speak.
>>> >>
>>> >>And would you please explain to my Doberman about being obedient? She
didn't get that memo. I've only had her since Sunday evening and she is
most definitely testing all the boundaries. I'm sure once she figures out
that I'm really for serious about the rules, she'll be more obedient, but
today well...
>>> >>
>>> >>I do get what you are saying about the trainability of the breeds you
listed, but it's a double edged sword. Yes, the Doberman can learn
something with only a handful of repetitions, sometimes just once is enough.
that's cool, until you goof as a trainer. If your dog needs 50 repetitions
to learn something and you mess up on number 35, it is going to average out
and the dog will get what you want. If your dog only needs 5 repetitions
and you goof, the odds just went way up that you've just trained the wrong
thing. Dogs that need more repetitions do need more patience to train, but
dogs with a high trainability need a high level of consistency. So I guess
it comes down to what the strengths of the trainer are or what the trainer
is willing to do to work with the dog.
>>> >>
>>> >>I don't know your training approach, so I'll offer a couple of
solutions that immediately come to mind. Feel free to use what works and
ignore the rest.
>>> >>
>>> >>You can use the leash in your right hand to apply gentle pressure
forward. This requires a pretty flexible person with a good sense of balance
because it is physically difficult to have one hand on the handle with
pressure back, one arm out forward keeping the dogs head forward and to keep
walking. It also leaves you with only the ability to offer verbal praise.
It does work though. This is what worked best with Belle, my guide before
Monty.
>>> >>
>>> >>With Monty I used an incompatible behavior. He was most distracted by
other dogs. So at first if he saw another dog, I'd turn and go directly
back the way I just came from. This breaks his line of sight of the dog
and gets his attention back on me. Once he was behaving, I'd turn back
toward the dog. Each time I'd work him just a tiny bit closer to the other
dog. In one session we might only make it a few feet closer. It is easiest
if there are dogs behind fences to work with because they will stay the same
distance away and won't break away from the owner accidentally.
>>> >>
>>> >>If the dog was on a leash with its owner I might move up into a
driveway or yard and get Monty to sit or nose target my hand. anything that
he could be successful with while the other dog passed by. I'd reward for
him doing anything, no matter how small, that wasn't to do with the other
dog.
>>> >>
>>> >>If your dog is not distracted by other dogs the above method will
still work, you just have to figure out what he's distracted by and work
back and forth to and from it until he can successfully ignore it. So if
it's the smells from a bakery, you could walk close enough until he just
starts to show the first signs of being distracted, then you back track and
praise/give reward for his attention back on you. Then back toward the
bakery praising and rewarding for good posture and attention until you
anticipate he will become distracted, then move away. You want to plan for
as much success as possible.
>>> >>
>>> >>Monty was very extremely dog distracted. When I was first working
with him he would literally jump up and down and make the most pitiful
whining noises because he wanted to play with the other dogs. There were
times I couldn't get far enough away from the other dog in time and I'd just
have to hold on to the leash and wait until the other dog was gone. It
took months and months to get him past this problem.
>>> >>
>>> >>Honestly your dog sounds like a normal adolescent dog. they all test
the boundaries. You just have to keep at it and work on the underlying
issue. It might be helpful to back off on the harness part of training until
he is less distracted. It will help him to build a really solid foundation
skill without splitting your concentration and effort between two different
things, distractions and harness work. Or you could practice harness work
in a lower distraction area where he won't sniff or look and work on his
distractions without the harness in places where he struggles.
>>> >>
>>> >>Oh, I just thought of another approach. Sometimes just stopping,
having the dog sit, and letting him look at whatever he is interested in can
be enough to satisfy his curiosity. then you can have him stand and be on
your way again, distraction over. I think it really depends on the
particular dog and how they make sense of the world.
>>> >>
>>> >>Best of luck,
>>> >>Julie
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>-----Original Message----- From: Valerie Gibson via nagdu
>>> >>Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 1:35 PM
>>> >>To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> >>Subject: Re: [nagdu] An Introduction
>>> >>
>>> >>First, it was not my intention to give off the impression that dog
trainers were meek. Forgive me if I made you feel that way.
>>> >>
>>> >>My point is that goldens,labs, poodles, even dobermens, germain
>>> >>sheperds, etc all ranks 1 through 10 in trainability. They'll
>>> >>obey a command 95% of the time.
>>> >>(Seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Intelligence_of_Dogs)
>>> >>
>>> >>I don't want to make it sound like it's not hard to train those dogs,
but they pick up on things much faster, so in a sense, yeah, you don't need
as much patience with those dogs, generally speaking, as you would with an
akita.
>>> >>
>>> >>Second, I know why he veers/curls. He wants to sniff or go over to
the direction he's curling toward. My uestion was more how to control this
and if it's something i should be particularly worried about given his age
and the reason why, not why he's doing it.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>Thank you
>>> >>On Aug 22, 2014, at 12:25 PM, Julie J.<julielj at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>> >>
>>>> >>>You know, of all the owner trainers I know there is one who has a
Lab and that's Rox and all her previous owner trained guides were not labs.
There are Border Collies, GSD's, Poodles, Dobermans and all sorts of mixes.
Owner trainers don't seem to lean toward Labs as their preferred breed. Also
I have never met a meek owner trainer. We all seem to be confident, and
self assured or fake it really well. Yes, there are moments of doubt and
feelings of utter failure, but you put on the big kid underpants and deal.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>Traffic training refers to the process of teaching the dog to
respect traffic and keep the handler out of harms way from traffic. The
exact process varies from owner trainer to owner trainer or program to
program, I suppose. The end result is all the same...a dog who will
actively avoid letting you become road pizza.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>Your curling or veering issue can be caused from a variety of
things. If your posture or alignment is out of whack, it can cause the dog
to try to compensate. If you are putting pressure on the handle unevenly
it can cause the dog to lean into the higher pressure point. An ill fitting
harness or too short handle could cause this too. Being distracted is a
big one as is a bit of confusion or uncertainty in a particular area. Most
dogs will curl in toward the handler if they are being extra cautious or
visually checking for a tight clearance situation. If it only lasts for a
few steps and the dog gets back facing forward, I wouldn't worry about it.
If it's happening frequently or for long stretches, then I'd start
experimenting to see how to address it.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>Julie
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>-----Original Message----- From: Valerie Gibson via nagdu
>>>> >>>Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 12:46 PM
>>>> >>>To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>> >>>Users
>>>> >>>Subject: Re: [nagdu] An Introduction
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>Hi guys,
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>Just another quick question, but I feel a bit out of the loop here
on something. What do you guys mean by "traffic training". I mean, I think
I understand what you mean,but I just want to make sure we're on the same
page.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>Also, what are your methods for teaching this.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>In regards to philosophy. I teach zion with posative reenforcement
until he has mastered a command. Once I know he's mastered it, I move onto
correctional methods. For him, I use a prong collar. With that being said,
I'd like to add a couple comments.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>First, I know how to use one, and I won't let anyone take the leash
of my dog (even if they're a friend and trying to help), if they do not know
how to use one. I've seen them misused, and I can see why they get such a
bad rep for it.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>Second, the prong collar is not for every dog. My dog is one of the
spitz breeds, much like the husky. If you've seen a husky, you know what I
mean. For those who haven't, he's literally a fluf ball. I think a few
enches of his hight is taken up by fur. He's got a course outer coat and a
very dense wooly undercoat. The prong collar is the only collar that I know
will reach his skin.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>Third, Because I know he's gotten a command down, I really hardly
ever have to use it accept in cases of high destractions, and even then it's
a rare thing. Usualy, we'll be walking forward, he'll se another dog, look
at that dog and whine, but continue walking forward.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>When Zion is especially distracted, I'll put the gentle leader on
him, and honestly, he hates it more than the prong collar. I think I've
gotten more comments on animal cruelty with the gentle leader than the prong
collar, and that's just because he makes such a fuss over it.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>The gentle leader has it's place, but I don't consider it a training
collar because there's no correction given. Well, I think the only way it
could be use in training is that it can teach a dog right and left pretty
easily.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>And now for my last question.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>I'd be eager and excited to start a devision for blind dog trainers,
since there's not one. How would I get the ball rolling on this? I
envision changing the world in regards to dog training by this. I imagine a
devision like this to be a place where we could talk about training
philosophies as wel as nonvisual ways to train a dog, a way where we could
reach out to blind pet owners and let our trained dogs speak for themselves
in regards to our training, a place and way to reach out to sighted trainers
who'd be willing to give us a shot and offer some pointers for what we might
need, a way to train dogs for other blind people, etc.
>>>> >>>Quick side note, I usually don't like training dogs for other
people. With the akita, it's ill advised because they form such strong and
long lasting attachments with the handler, it's better to owner train them
in any work they may do.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>As stated before, akitas were bred to think and do their job
without step by step instruction from the handler because they were bred for
hunting. With the retrievers like the lab and golden, the owner gave a
command, which was usually to retrieve, and the dog carried it out. This
makes them, what we'd call, eager to please.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>If I do train a dog for someone else, especially if it were a guide
dog, I'd prefer to have the dog live with it's owner handler, and that
person would take on the responsibilities of taking care of it. This
provides the owner handler with more time to bond with the dog.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>There have been times when I've gotten frustrated and had to take a
deep breath when it comes to Zion. Having to take him out every 3 hours,
dealign with horrible bout of clostridium, dealing with health issues that
didn't affect his training but health issues nonetheless, cleaning up after
him when he decides to throw a completely full bowl of water across my
livingroom, etc. But I wouldn't trade those moments for anything. They will
be memories I will look back on and cherish. I'm sure puppy raisers can
relate to this, and I think blind people who want a guide dog trained by a
blind person should have these memories.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>Also, I can see a problem where you'd have a trainer taking a dog
in, training it, and because the trainer has more of a hard temperment the
dog responds. If the new owner handler has a softer temperment the dog may
think, "this guy's no leader,he's a pushover. I'll obey this person while my
real leader's around, but once they leave, I shall walk all over this new
guy who thinks he can tell me what to do". I'm probably still thinking of
the akita breed, but Zion refuses to listen to anyone else when they give
him a command. Acording to sighted people, he looks at them like, "and who
are you to tell me what to do?" Then he'll look at me. Possibly with a dog
that's eager to please, you won't have this problem.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>But that's just my perspective. It does not mean that it's
>>>> >>>wrong or right or better. If it's worked for you to take a dog
>>>> >>>on and train it for a blind person, more power to you. :)
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>Please let me know how to get the ball rolling on a division for
blind dog trainers, and I'll jump on that.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>ThanksOn Aug 22, 2014, at 9:08 AM, Danielle Sykora via
nagdu<nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>>Hi Valerie and all,
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>I am also very interested in dog training and I think it would
>>>>> >>>>be beneficial to many people to form a dog training division.
>>>>> >>>>I plan on owner training a dog in the future because I don't
>>>>> >>>>agree with forceful methods of training among other things common
to most programs.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>My dog does the same thing where he will move forward but
>>>>> >>>>angle either to the left or right, usually when he is
>>>>> >>>>distracted by something. In this situation, I tell him
>>>>> >>>>"straight" and praise him when he looks straight ahead.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>I have never found it difficult to read a dog's body language,
>>>>> >>>>as long as they are on leash or close enough for me to touch
>>>>> >>>>them. I can detect aggression in a dog before any
>>>>> >>>>vocalization, freezing, staring, tail position etc.
>>>>> >>>>I hope all goes well with Zion's training.
>>>>> >>>>Danielle and Thai
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>On 8/22/14, Dan Weiner via nagdu<nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>>>The only thig I'mimagining you would definitely need help
>>>>>> >>>>>with is traffic checking since you, after all don't drive a
car--smile.
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>Dan
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>> >>>>>From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>> >>>>>Cindy Ray via nagdu
>>>>>> >>>>>Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 8:20 AM
>>>>>> >>>>>To: Julie J.; NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of
>>>>>> >>>>>Guide Dog Users
>>>>>> >>>>>Subject: Re: [nagdu] An Introduction
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>I have never trained a dog to guide and never will. I
>>>>>> >>>>>believe I can imagine that you wouldn't need a sighted
>>>>>> >>>>>trainer to help you. There could be a few things that
>>>>>> >>>>>someone who is sighted and whom you also trusted could help
>>>>>> >>>>>with. Sometimes they could see that your dog is posturing,
>>>>>> >>>>>for instance, about another dog, especially if it hasn't
>>>>>> >>>>>gotten to the stage where it is being vocal about it.
>>>>>> >>>>>However, it wouldn't be long before you were keenly aware of
that fact without that help, so I can see being able to do this with very
little sighted help.
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>Cindy
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>On Aug 22, 2014, at 5:40 AM, Julie J. via
nagdu<nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>Debby,
>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>I just received Jetta, who was trained and placed with me
>>>>>>> >>>>>>by a blind
>>>>>> >>>>>trainer. I am an experienced guide dog handler and I'm
>>>>>> >>>>>certain that makes a difference here. Meghan followed
>>>>>> >>>>>behind Jetta and I either with her cane or with a sighted
>>>>>> >>>>>guide. She had no difficulty keeping up when she was using
>>>>>> >>>>>her cane. If I noticed Jetta doing something, like curling in
toward me, I
>>>>>> >>>>>would mention it to Meghan so she could offer suggestions. We
skipped the
>>>>>> >>>>>part where the trainer clips a leash to the dog and walks
alongside in the
>>>>>> >>>>>very beginning. I've never liked that anyway. I had no
problems at all
>>>>>> >>>>>with our training arrangement. Meghan knows Jetta very well
>>>>>> >>>>>because she has worked her frequently and nonvisually. She
>>>>>> >>>>>could give me very specific information about how Jetta
>>>>>> >>>>>navigates her environment and what to expect.
>>>>>> >>>>>I
>>>>>> >>>>>believe that this was Meghan's first time independently
>>>>>> >>>>>placing a guide with
>>>>>> >>>>>a blind person. It was a new experience for both of us.
Previously I
>>>>>> >>>>>had
>>>>>> >>>>>owner trained my guides.
>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>If a person was entirely new to guide dogs and dogs in
>>>>>>> >>>>>>general I think
>>>>>> >>>>>there would have had to be a lot more training with the person.
The blind
>>>>>> >>>>>trainer would have to ask lots of questions and check for
>>>>>> >>>>>proper positioning when the team was standing still. I
>>>>>> >>>>>think the blind trainer could use a sighted reader/describer
>>>>>> >>>>>to assess some of the visual elements.
>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>As far as traffic training goes...it can be done by a
>>>>>>> >>>>>>blind person, the
>>>>>> >>>>>dog portion anyway.*smile* You just get a driver and explain
very
>>>>>> >>>>>thoroughly what you need them to do. If you can set up
>>>>>> >>>>>ongoing communication during the traffic training by cell
>>>>>> >>>>>phone head sets or walkie talkies or something, that makes it
much easier.
>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>Julie
>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>-----Original Message----- From: debby phillips via nagdu
>>>>>>> >>>>>>Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 11:10 PM
>>>>>>> >>>>>>To:nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> >>>>>>Subject: Re: [nagdu] An Introduction
>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>Hi Valerie, your post was very interesting, and I can see
>>>>>>> >>>>>>that you have put a lot of time and thought in to the
>>>>>>> >>>>>>process. I do not believe that every blind person should
>>>>>>> >>>>>>and could train their own dog, but I have seen one that
>>>>>>> >>>>>>was awesome. The man who trained him did a great job. I
>>>>>>> >>>>>>believe though that his next dog was from one of the schools.
I think I do have a couple of concerns. One is this:
>>>>>>> >>>>>>traffic is becoming more and more dangerous. It doesn't
>>>>>>> >>>>>>mean that we should all stay home and never go out. Lol.
>>>>>>> >>>>>>But it does mean that we, and our dogs need to be extra
>>>>>>> >>>>>>aware. Gone are the days of simply listening for a surge
>>>>>>> >>>>>>of parallel traffic and heading across the street. There
>>>>>>> >>>>>>are turning lanes, right on red, and cars are just plain
>>>>>>> >>>>>>quieter, and I'm not even talking about the hybrids.
>>>>>>> >>>>>>Seeing Eye does a lot of traffic training with our dogs,
>>>>>>> >>>>>>some of it using the general public and some of it that
>>>>>>> >>>>>>they set up. Keeping a certain distance from traffic is
>>>>>>> >>>>>>important. So if you can find a trainer who is willing to
work with you on that part, I recommend that. I hope that ow am not
sounding like I am against what you are doing, I'm not.
>>>>>>> >>>>>>I admire you for your effort, and wish you success.
>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>I may offend some folks when I say the following: I do not
>>>>>>> >>>>>>believe that a blind person can train me with a dog. Dogs
>>>>>>> >>>>>>and people move faster than people who travel with canes,
>>>>>>> >>>>>>(though I know some very fast walkers who use canes.
>>>>>>> >>>>>>There are certain parts of instruction that a blind person
>>>>>>> >>>>>>could do, like some of the dog care, things like that.
>>>>>>> >>>>>>But instructors see how the dog and person are walking
>>>>>>> >>>>>>together, they can often figure out whether a different kind
of harness is needed, for instance.
>>>>>>> >>>>>>Right away, my instructor saw that I was not giving Neena
>>>>>>> >>>>>>enough tension in the harness, and that sometimes I was
>>>>>>> >>>>>>pushing her. I don't think that a blind instructor would
>>>>>>> >>>>>>see that. In those early days of training it's so
>>>>>>> >>>>>>important to get feedback, and I really believe, that at
>>>>>>> >>>>>>least in this situation, that feedback needs to come from
>>>>>>> >>>>>>an instructor who can make visual observations. Now, I
>>>>>>> >>>>>>have had two blind mobility instructors, and they were
>>>>>>> >>>>>>awesome, and I had no issue with them. But I think there's a
difference between cane travel and traveling with a dog.
>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>It's okay if you disagree with me, I had a friend while I
>>>>>>> >>>>>>was a student at CCB and we debated this issue a lot. He
>>>>>>> >>>>>>never did convince me, by the way. (Grin). But it wasn't
>>>>>>> >>>>>>for lack of trying. But that doesn't mean that I haven't
>>>>>>> >>>>>>learned a lot from other people who use dogs as guides. I
>>>>>>> >>>>>>definitely have, but not the basics, and not stuff dealing
with dogs and traffic.
>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>Well, I really need to be in bed now. Tomorrow is Friday,
yea!
>>>>>>> >>>>>>Maybe I'll get to more email then. Again, good luck, Valerie!
>>>>>>> >>>>>>Debby and Neena
>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>> >>>>>>nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>> >>>>>>nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> >>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> >>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>> >>>>>>account info for
>>>>>> >>>>>nagdu:
>>>>>>> >>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj
>>>>>>> >>>>>>%40neb.rr.co
>>>>>>> >>>>>>m
>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>-----
>>>>>>> >>>>>>No virus found in this message.
>>>>>>> >>>>>>Checked by AVG -www.avg.com
>>>>>>> >>>>>>Version: 2012.0.2247 / Virus Database: 3955/7572 - Release
Date:
>>>>>>> >>>>>>08/21/14
>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>> >>>>>>nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>> >>>>>>nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> >>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> >>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>> >>>>>>account info for
>>>>>> >>>>>nagdu:
>>>>>>> >>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyra
>>>>>>> >>>>>>y%40gmail.co
>>>>>>> >>>>>>m
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>> >>>>>nagdu mailing list
>>>>>> >>>>>nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>> >>>>>info for
>>>>>> >>>>>nagdu:
>>>>>> >>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dcwein%40
>>>>>> >>>>>dcwein.cnc.net
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>> >>>>>nagdu mailing list
>>>>>> >>>>>nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>> >>>>>info for
>>>>>> >>>>>nagdu:
>>>>>> >>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dsykora29
>>>>>> >>>>>%40gmail.com
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>> >>>>nagdu mailing list
>>>>> >>>>nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
for nagdu:
>>>>> >>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/valandkayla
>>>>> >>>>%40gmail.com
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>_______________________________________________
>>>> >>>nagdu mailing list
>>>> >>>nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
for nagdu:
>>>> >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40neb
>>>> >>>.rr.com
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>-----
>>>> >>>No virus found in this message.
>>>> >>>Checked by AVG -www.avg.com
>>>> >>>Version: 2012.0.2247 / Virus Database: 3955/7577 - Release Date:
>>>> >>>08/22/14
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>_______________________________________________
>>> >>nagdu mailing list
>>> >>nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nagdu:
>>> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40neb.r
>>> >>r.com
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>-----
>>> >>No virus found in this message.
>>> >>Checked by AVG -www.avg.com
>>> >>Version: 2012.0.2247 / Virus Database: 3955/7577 - Release Date:
>>> >>08/22/14
>> >
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >nagdu mailing list
>> >nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nagdu:
>> >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40neb.rr.
>> >com
>> >
>> >
>> >-----
>> >No virus found in this message.
>> >Checked by AVG -www.avg.com
>> >Version: 2012.0.2247 / Virus Database: 3955/7577 - Release Date:
>> >08/22/14
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >nagdu mailing list
>> >nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nagdu:
>> >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/buddy%40brannan.n
>> >ame
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nagdu:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/tami%40poodlemutt.c
> om
>
_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.co
m
More information about the NAGDU
mailing list