[nagdu] Rules Regarding Pet Dogs was RE: New Jersey Laws regarding guide dogs being attacked

Sat Aug 23 23:49:04 UTC 2014

Cendy,
I don't mean to downplay how you guys must feel when you are involved in a dog attack, and I'm sure that aggression is a serious matter, but for whatever reason it's not taken as seriously as it should. otherwise, we wouldnt' be having this discussion.  
And again I don't mean to downplay your feelings, but when you've put in the time and money into your dog such as those who do train their own dogs, it adds a bit more weight to the person because you see all your hard work going down the drain or having the potential to. And you can give a number to the amount of money that you have put into the dog, and then more vet bills...
Then you have the matter of how you hadle aggression.  Some blind people do and are told to not get in the middle of a dog fight to just let your dog go and hope for the best.  Because I've seen bad dog fights, I have a hard time doing that even if it may be the safest thing for me.  

That lady I mentioned who had the boxer was under the impression that since Zion wasn't bleeding, everything was okay.  I'm sure that most of you take your dogs safety more seriously because you're a team. I'm just explaining that the majority of people out there don't, and it sucks, but there you go.
sorry if I came off as degrading in my last message.  I just get royally ticked off when people don't take aggression as seriously as it neds to be, and I see it in service dog users too.  I've just seen dog aggression where, if my family hadn't had the money they did, every single one of their dogs would have been dead due to a dog fight.  I'm all to famiiliar with the cone collars and drainage tubes that i've seen on multple dogs due to fights.  
On Aug 23, 2014, at 4:24 PM, Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com> wrote:

> Valerie, I have to say that probably just about everybody knows the things you are pointing out here even if they have not had a dog attack. I am not sure that you can expect people to look at it from some other perspective when some of them have had their dogs’ careers cut way short because either a dog damaged them beyond repair or because the trauma was so deep that the dog could never work again. Then if they were training dogs, they have to start over; if they are getting their dogs through programs they have to wait an inordinate amount of time, and then they have to leave home or work or whatever to get that dog. Many of us have actually perhaps not studied dog psychology to the extent you have, but many of us have had dogs long enough to understand a great deal about how they perk. 
> 
> Cindy Lou
> cindyray at gmail.com
> 
> On Aug 23, 2014, at 5:06 PM, Valerie Gibson via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
>> I know this might not apply to you guys, but people often don't look at this situation in reverse.
>> 
>> I had a brittany who was very nervous around other dogs.  Family members had just put her out with their pack, and she was nearly ripped open a few times.  
>> 
>> Anyway, when I moved to Denver, I noticed there were a lot of dog people about. Some people would let their dogs run into the apartment's courtyard off leash.  They would often run up to my brittany.  She is a very sweet dog, but if approached by a stange dog, she'll try to back away, and if that doesn't get the dog off, she will attack the strange dog.
>> 
>> People would often say things like, "oh my dog's friendly. he's friendly." to which i would reply, but mine's not.  I always kept Hope on a leash, but there was only so much I could do for overly enthusiastic dogs. Luckily she never got after a stranger's dog.
>> 
>> I ended up placing her with a lady who worked at a rescue because, being blind, I'm not comfortable dealing with aggresion issues in dogs.  
>> 
>> As blind people, we can argue that we can read our dog's body language to handle aggression, and that's true, but we cannot read two dogs body languages at the same time and react fast enough to deal with the situation before it becomes physical.
>> 
>> I've seen some rally bad dog fights, where dogs are literally ripped open to the bone, where blood is everywhere for me not to take dog aggression very seriously.  I know the physical and psychlogical damage that just one seemingly small dog fight can cause to a trained dog, and I know how very quickly a dog fight can last.  Within a minute or less, a dog can easily be torn open.  
>> 
>> I've seen it often that my first thought is just to react, which I know is very dangerous.
>> 
>> I was walking zion near my apartment when he was 21 weeks old when this boxer runs to a shop door that we were walking past, pushes it open, and leaps on my dog.  Zion was wearing an empty backpack and, rather than a leash he had a leash tab on him. That's like the leash hook and th ehandle, without the actual leash part in the middle.  I dropped that, got behind the boxer, lifted it up, and held it until a lady came out for it.  She tried to tell me that the dog had never done that before, to which i called her a liar because it had jumped on a friend's gude dog a few months ago. She tried to throw some more lies at me, but I told her that the next time I got word that that dog was in that shop, I'd be calling the police.  I did call animal control after, just for good measure.  I've never seen the dog sense.
>> 
>> f zion hadn't had that backpack on so the dog couldn't get hold of anything, he would have been hurt.  If Zion were older, like he is now, he would have easily ripped that dog to pieces, because akitas will risk life and limb before running away from a fight.  
>> 
>> Luckily, when i dropped the tab, he walked behind me, sat down, and watched, but he was a puppy then and to him, I was the pack leader and I knew what's best.  Now that he's an adolescent and thinks he knows what's best some times, I can't afford for people to bring aggressive dogs around me.  I can, however, teach Zion that, while he's outside of our home and while he has his leash and harnesss on, he's to ignore said dogs.  
>> 
>> When he comes across a barking snarling dog, he does look at it and whine, but he doesn't make an active effort to go near it.  I can't take the drive to stand up to an opponent completely out of the dog.  After al, they were bred for guarding purposes, but I can minimize it.
>> 
>> I know I seemed to go off topic here, but my point is, dog aggression needs to be thought of both ways for people.  That's why I never go to dog parks or dog hang out spots.  I trust my dog. it's other people's dogs I don't trust.
>> 
>> Since we were talking about pets in the work place, I think employers should be provided with documentation from a dog training class that that dog is ineeed socialable before allowing pets in the work place.
>> 
>> 
>> On Aug 23, 2014, at 2:36 PM, Daryl Marie via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>>> I share an office building with two other offices. One of the other tenants has a little yippy dog named Gizmo (I have written about him previously).  Since the office he hangs out in is self-contained, as is mine, I don't worry about him being out and about without his owner, but sometimes he will stand at his office door and bark through the glass at Jenny when we enter/exit the building.  Jenny does not react when we are leaving the building, but when we are re-entering she will sometimes react to the barking.  I don't think it's a big deal largely because he can't get at her, and it gives me a chance to work on dog distractions.
>>> 
>>> However, on the street is another matter. I am firmly of the belief that people should have more control over their dogs.  Not sure if I posted about this before, but a couple months ago Jenny and I were walking home, and we were about to take a corner around a curved sidewalk. Out of nowhere this dog comes flying across the street at us and seriously distracts Jenny. The owner, still across the street, whines "Archie!  Come back, Archie!"  Without missing a beat I yell over at her to come get her dog.  She just says "what?" (as though it's not illegal - if not unsafe - to have an off-leash dog running around and crossing residential streets.  I yell back to come get her dog.  By this point, thankfully, Jenny is no longer distracted and we're on our way, Archie goes back across the street to his owner, and all I hear is a half-smiley "You stay in the yard, Archie."
>>> 
>>> I wish I could say this situation is unique, but it isn't.  Over about a one-month period, in addition to Archie, I had another dog come up to Jenny multiple times with its owner standing right there and refusing to put it on a leash, and another dog completely unattended come up to Jenny and I while walking to work.
>>> 
>>> Dogs are not perfect; occasionally Jenny will do something wholly office-inappropriate (barking at the furnace repairman with his gun-shaped infrared temperature reader, for example).  However, no one has suggested I leave her at home.
>>> The difference is with aggression here.  If rules are broken and the owner doesn't keep the dog - service dog or not - under control, then that is a seriously dangerous situation for everyone, not just a guide dog team.
>>> 
>>> Daryl
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Cindy Ray via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> To: Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com>, NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 11:58:03 -0600 (MDT)
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Rules Regarding Pet Dogs was RE: New Jersey Laws	regarding	guide dogs being attacked
>>> 
>>> Well, here’s the deal. The workplace should have rules and enforce them. If dogs growl at other dogs, then the next step can be lunging/snapping. You can never worry about whose dog created the problem in the first place; you have to put the situation at an end. Mostly people will tell you their dogs or kids are blameless. Mostly, I figure my dog had something to do with it. Sometimes you do know, but if you want more information, you have to ask a neutral third party. At the end of the day though, you gotta protect that dog and ask questions about who done it later. I sure can’t figure out how dogs can be in the workplace if they are pets. There is such a wide range of behaviors among pets.
>>> 
>>> Cindy
>>> 
>>> On Aug 23, 2014, at 11:59 AM, Valerie Gibson via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I agree with barb here.  You don't know what lexia did.  If it was an anxious dog, sometimes having another dog look at it will make it growl.  I don't like pulling the whole, "you didn't see what happened", but when it comes to aggression be it nervous aggression or territorial or otherwise, you kind of have to because, even for a sighted trainer or handler, body language that is nonverbal is super important and you don't know what body language the other dog was giving off, coupled with what your dog was doing unless you were contiously keeping an eye out.  
>>>> 
>>>> Does that mean that it was okay for the dog to growl? by human standards, I'd say no.  And I agree that if the dog was nervous aggressive, the owner should do the dog a favor and not put the dog in a situation where it feels so nervous.  That being said, your dog is not stupid.  I don't mean to sound mean here, but I doubt she's like, "oh no! (sob) Why is the meanie bully growling at me?"  While the dog may be a bully (in a pack position it can't handle) your dog knows why it growled.  They understand their culture better than we do.  
>>>> You might not have known the owner, but you were obviously close enough to hear the growl. you could have asked if the dog was aggresive (though most owners will lie to you about that), or if that dog was nervous around other dogs.  
>>>> 
>>>> I once had a well known person's guide dog growl and snap at my puppy once when he was about 3 months.  Zion may have just looked at this dog, but what was I going to do? Tell this person that she couldn't bring her guide dog around?  
>>>> 
>>>> It can be flustering when a dog growls at your dog, but staying calm is the only thing you can do.  Get in front of yoru dog and adopt a "this dog is mine. don't you come near it" aditude might tell the other dog that you're in charge.  If you're not comfortable doing that, make sure your dog's focus is on you and ignore the dog. This sends a message to your dog that you're not worried, it shouldn't be either.  
>>>> 
>>>> You also never said what the owner of the dog did once the dog growl.  If the owner did nothing, you could ask that he or she control the dog.  I don't care if you don't know this person. it's no excuse for an owner not to keep an eye and ear to what their dog is doing.  
>>>> 
>>>> Just my thoughts.
>>>> On Aug 23, 2014, at 10:23 AM, Nicole Torcolini via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Okay, maybe I should have given more information. I know what makes dogs
>>>>> growl, thank you very much. I was standing in the lobby with Lexia, minding
>>>>> my own business as was Lexia, when the other person came in with the other
>>>>> dog. I do not think that Lexia did anything to make the other dog growl
>>>>> unless she made eye contact with it. Given that the person was not from my
>>>>> building, I could not just go talk to the person. And, for the record, if
>>>>> the dog was alone, that would also have been grounds for reporting it as it
>>>>> is against the rules to leave a dog alone. And, no, it was not the first
>>>>> time that the dog had been there. And, even if it had been, it would not
>>>>> have been an excuse for the dog growling. If you have a pet dog that you
>>>>> know gets excited to the point of growling at other dogs when you take it
>>>>> new places, then you don't take it a place like work where the primary
>>>>> activity is work, not dog behavior.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Nicole
>>>>> 
>>>>> _____  
>>>>> 
>>>>> From: barbandzoe at comcast.net [mailto:barbandzoe at comcast.net] 
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2014 8:59 AM
>>>>> To: clarebearwest at gmail.com; sofiagallo13 at gmail.com; NAGDU Mailing List, the
>>>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users; Nicole Torcolini
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Rules Regarding Pet Dogs was RE: New Jersey Laws
>>>>> regarding guide dogs being attacked
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> I don't know what the two were doing, but if your dog can to close and other
>>>>> felt  a bit nervous  they could growl.  If that dog had a toy or food or
>>>>> something he was chewing on, he might think he has to defend it. He maybe
>>>>> was just telling your dog that , this is my space and my people, so don't
>>>>> bother them. 
>>>>> Just because a dog growls doesn't mean they are mean. 
>>>>> If the dog doesn't go to work everyday like yours, this is very exciting and
>>>>> they don't know quit where they fit in.  
>>>>> Was the owner at the dest? If the dog was by himself he may have been
>>>>> frightened of being alone, and then another dog he doesn't know comes by and
>>>>> he gets nervous .  
>>>>> 
>>>>> Talk to the owner, and if the dogs will be crossing paths, maybe you two
>>>>> should let the dogs meet each other. 
>>>>> Barb
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sent from Xfinity Connect Mobile App
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> ------ Original Message ------
>>>>> 
>>>>> From: Nicole Torcolini via nagdu
>>>>> To: sofiagallo13 at gmail.com, 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of
>>>>> Guide Dog Users', clarebearwest at gmail.com
>>>>> Sent: August 22, 2014 at 9:54 PM
>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Rules Regarding Pet Dogs was RE: New Jersey Laws regarding
>>>>> guide dogs being attacked
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sofia,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Are there any rules about pet dogs? Where I work, people are allowed
>>>>> to bring their pet dogs, but there are certain rules that they are supposed
>>>>> to follow. I do not know how many people read the rules, and, of those, how
>>>>> many follow them, but they can get in trouble for not following them. I had
>>>>> an incident  last Friday where one of the pet dogs growled at Lexia. I
>>>>> reported it, and it was supposedly resolved, but they did not say exactly
>>>>> what was done.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Nicole and sweet Lexia who is wondering why the mean doggy growled at her
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of sofia via nagdu
>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 7:31 PM
>>>>> To: Cindy Ray via nagdu; clarebearwest at gmail.com
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu]New Jersey Laws regarding guide dogs being attacked
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi!
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Here is the New Jersey law: Dusty's Law. I believe it is one of the most
>>>>> comprehensive in the country and NFB helped pass it.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> I go to college in NJ and people from town love to walk their dogs off leash
>>>>> around my campus and ignore them until they have already done something
>>>>> wrong. Nothing beyond getting us distracted has happened yet, but honestly,
>>>>> it’s a recipe for disaster if people not only walk their dogs off leash but
>>>>> also stop paying attention to what they are doing.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sofia
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sent from Windows Mail
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> From: Cindy Ray via nagdu
>>>>> Sent: ‎Friday‎, ‎August‎ ‎22‎, ‎2014 ‎10‎:‎21‎ ‎PM
>>>>> To: Cindy Ray via nagdu
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi everyone! Tonight I was out on a walk with Quincy and for the third time
>>>>> in a week someone's rot Wiler got loose. But this time the dog charged
>>>>> Quincy and attacked him. The Dragos are knocked my mom over. We called the
>>>>> police and they came out and spoke with us. They also spoke with the dogs
>>>>> owners. We have 30 days to file a complaint. I will definitely do that. I
>>>>> was wondering if New Jersey has any laws regarding service dogs being
>>>>> attacked. The reason the dogs keep getting Moose is because their owner does
>>>>> not fix their fence.  Instead, they just temporarily try to prevent the dogs
>>>>> from escaping. The police told them they must get their fence fixed. So
>>>>> hopefully they will. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. By the way,
>>>>> when she was not injured in anyway. I did call the school to let the
>>>>> director know what has occurred. I am hoping that Quincy will not be
>>>>> skittish around other dogs! I am sure the director will call me on Monday
>>>>> morning. Thank you all for your support and help.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> m
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
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>>>> 
>>>> 
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>> 
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