[nagdu] Teaching Relieving was RE: trouble with relieving

Thu Dec 11 16:12:26 UTC 2014

Not sure if the two are related. However, my first dog would never relieve on concrete after I introduced her to grass. At the time it was all right since I attend a college with tons of grassy fields. However, I found that it can get super messy and muddy when it rains. Unfortunately she would only go on grass so sometimes she would hold out for a couple of days if I tried to get her to go on concrete. Additionally, it was really hard to find grassy places in big cities like San Francisco or New York. My current dog is great about going were ever I want her to go. all I gotta do is take off the harness and tell her to do her business. I must admit this is pretty great since I don't really have a fixed routine.
Lastly, I don't remember the trainers picking up after our dogs at GDB last year. I think they told us to do it from day one.
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marsha Drenth via nagdu
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2014 6:37 AM
To: Vivianna; NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Teaching Relieving was RE: trouble with relieving

All,
Vivianna, I didn't read your post as bashing. I did read as you explaining your preferences, your needs and wants for what they, the school teaches. 
I do want to say that we can not fault John for his dog, running the curbs, its the teaching in which might be lacking. with all first time handlers, there is a naiveness that comes with working a pup for the first time. John wanted to go to Pilot, a school he wanted to go to, the school he thought was best for him. We are here to help fill in the gaps, to provide experiences, tips and tricks as people who have used dogs for a longer period of time. this also leads me to say that people also need to know before they go to a scfhool, what the school teaches and what they do not. In other words, informed consent and choice. 

As far as the relieving, my current pup is from GDF, and just like many of the other schools, at first they clean up after the dogs when relieving. I, didn't allow this. I recieved my dog, gave her a day to get use to me, and then started to feel her back. I did this very slowly not to scare her. Within a few days I was able to feel her completely, thus able to pick up. The instructors in my case were a little baffled at why I would want to do this so quickly. But this was a part of the bonding for me and my dog. It was also important after that because once I got home, we were hit with hurricane Sandy, where I had to relieve in some of the most unusual and strangest places, but the grass and streets were littered with trash. It took control of picking up, knowing my dogs signals, and was very clear with her of when it was right to relieve. Other than some issues at first because of the hurricane and issues a few months ago, we have been good in the relieving area. I have gotten my pups food regulated that she doesn't relieve in harness or while walking. As far as the question, about relieving on concrete or grass. I live in Philadelphia, where there is some grass, but mostly concrete. its easier in my opinion to pick up with concrete. Grass is harder to find, so I have stayed with concrete. My pup also has the need to be curbbed. I do not know if dogs that are trained on concrete are more likely to have accidents on concrete, more than dogs trained on grass. 

Also, I never take my pups harness to relieve if we are out and about. My balance would not allow this to happen, and knowing me, I might fall, and not have her harness on to help get me back up. I don't think this adds or subtracts from her, my pup, with relieveing in harness or not. The isues I had a few months was that I needed to adjust how much food she got, at what time. we have it all worked out now. 

Just my two cents, 

Marsha drenth
email: marsha.drenth at gmail.com
Sent with my IPhone
Please note that this email communication has been sent using my iPhone. As such, I may have used dictation and had made attempts to mitigate errors. Please do not be hesitant to ask for clarification as necessary. 

> On Dec 11, 2014, at 9:03 AM, Vivianna via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> I, personally want my dog to be able to relieve wherever i ask her to go.  so, that would include, grass, concrete, off a curb, in a parking lot, on gravel, etc.  i believe it’s the signals that you give your dog that should tell them that it is all right to relieve.  this would include, stop, remove the harness, maybe get out a baggy and rustle it in the hand,  perhaps encouraging the dog with something verbal,  and, offering the dog a place to go that would be recognized as a relieving area.  
> i have only been to pilot for my current dog but, i never heard any talk about relieving and, i saw accidents in the hallways and rooms.  there is no relief schedule, there is no hands on picking up after your dog.  as a first time guide dog handler this would be really helpful.  those folks have absolutely no idea so, when they get home, they do not pick up after their dogs.  i have seen a graduate of my class who lives in the same city as me let her dog relieve, on several occasions, in harness and, in people’s front yards, never once picking it up.
> folks choose to go to a school for various reasons.  but, it’s well worth it to research in order that you will know what you are getting yourself into.  it should not be all about getting a dog, any dog, from any school, no matter what, just because you want one right now!  there are many things that pilot does not teach.  if you have already had guides and, you know how to work with this, then, by all means, go for it.  but, who will teach you, when you get home?  who will show you how to pick up after your dog?  who will show you how to train for overheads?  who will teach you about traffic checks?  etc etc.
> you may recall that john, himself, told all here that his dog ran 3 up curbs on his very first walk.  this is really not acceptable.  did he trip?  did he fall?  that’s because, pilot does not train the dogs to stop at the up curb.  yes, i was shocked.  they train for a pause not a stop.
> one of the most difficult things that i had to train my dog was the, stay, command.  this is an important command and one of the most difficult.  it’s harder to teach the dog stay than it is to train it to stop, full stop, at an up curb.
> i know that i am probably preaching to the choir here i also know 
> there are other pilot grads here who will tell you the same thing.
> my dog is a great guide now but, if she was my first and, i had no idea what to expect or how to work with her, i am certain things would be very different.
> this will be my last post on the training methods of pilot as, i fear i may be getting myself in troubles.
> some will say that i am bashing the school from which i got my own dog.  however, it’s not really bashing, it’s just stating the facts.  
> would i go back there for another dog?  yes, no doubt about it.
> but, i know what to expect and i can work with it, no problems.
> 
> Vivianna
>      
>> On Dec 11, 2014, at 7:23 AM, Daryl Marie via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Nicole,
>> I completely agree with you.
>> 
>> Perhaps because I did in-home training, the idea of not teaching how to relieve just flabbergasts me.  It was the first thing I learned about when Jenn got here with the trainer.  Before we did obedience, before we did leash-walking, before ANYTHING, the trainer showed me Jenny's signals and pointers on picking up.
>> During training, Jenny sometimes wouldn't relieve before taking off on a route, so we would have to stop so she could relieve.  Thankfully, we have worked it out so that she rarely has to do this.  If she does, she will pull over to a grassy area (or this time of year to a snowbank) and wait for me to take off her harness.  My husband often thinks she is distracted when she does this, but she will NEVER do this if she doesn't have to relieve... and she will always relieve if I take off her harness in these situations.
>> 
>> The only times she has had to relieve mid-walk in-harness, but those were because I didn't know her signals. She has peed on a sidewalk once, and about a month later pooped on the sidewalk... but she had given me a TON of signals beforehand that I just didn't notice.
>> 
>> It just seems odd that there is a lecture several weeks after training starts...
>> 
>> Daryl
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Nicole Torcolini via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> To: 'Lori Dent' <loriandleo at ohiohills.com>, 'NAGDU Mailing List, the 
>> National Association of Guide Dog Users' <nagdu at nfbnet.org>, 
>> 'Vivianna' <irishana at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 23:30:51 -0700 (MST)
>> Subject: [nagdu] Teaching Relieving was RE:  trouble with relieving
>> 
>> I don't mean to bash  Pilot Dogs, but, JMHO, what they do is just out 
>> irresponsible. People need to learn to pick up after their dogs, 
>> particularly if someone has never had a dog. At GDB, they had a 
>> concrete relieving area. At first, the trainers would tell us when 
>> our dogs were going  and then pick up using shovels because the dogs 
>> had messed up relieving schedules from being in the kennels during 
>> training. However, they did tell us how to tell when our dogs were 
>> doing what, and we transitioned to knowing what our dogs were doing and picking it up ourselves pretty fast.
>>    If a dog will not go on concrete, it may be worth trying grass, 
>> bark, gravel, or anything other than concrete. During my class, some 
>> of the dogs had what I called "grass rights", meaning that they were 
>> allowed to go on the grass instead of on the concrete because they 
>> just would not go on the concrete.
>> 
>> Nicole
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Lori Dent 
>> via nagdu
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 9:56 PM
>> To: Vivianna; NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide 
>> Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] trouble with relieving
>> 
>> Hi John,
>> 
>> 
>> I'm sorry your having relieving problems with Molly . I know while 
>> your at Pilot dogs and the dogs are relieving in the relieving area 
>> you don't have to pick up after your dog because the trainers  spray 
>> down the relieving area with a hose on a regular bases. And I know 
>> it's hard to tell if your dog is relieving or not when there are bars  all around the relieving area.
>> But you should be able to  tell if Molly is moving around or just 
>> standing there right?And if Molly is just standing there you got to 
>> get her moving and walking around so she will go.
>> 
>> Pilot does have a lecture on relieving your dog and how to tell if 
>> your dog is going or not and how to pick up after your dog. But 
>> unfortunately , the trainers don't do the relieving lecture  in the 
>> beginning of training which they should but does do it later in your training.
>> 
>> But in the mean time, ask your trainer if you can relieve your dog 
>> somewhere else so you can run your hand down your dogs back to see if your dog is
>> sqwotting   and if so, then you can position yourself behind the dog so when
>> 
>> she's done you can bend over and pick up the poop with the bag over 
>> your hand and then  remove the bag from your hand tie it up and throw 
>> the bag away.
>> 
>> I think Pilot needs to redesign there releive area for the students 
>> and dogs. They need to remove the current relief  area they have and 
>> maybe put down gravel instead  for the dogs that way the dogs can 
>> relieve on the gravel and the student can learn how to  tell if their 
>> dog is going or not and how to pick up after your dogs while in class.
>> 
>> Now I do know, you have to carry pick up bags while out on walks 
>> right? Does Molly relieve  while in harness on a walk? If so, you are 
>> responsible to pick up after your dog then right. Good  luck with this. Take care.
>> 
>> Lori and the Gipper
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavec
>> able.co
>> m
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/crazymusician%40sh
>> aw.ca
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/irishana%40gmail.c
>> om
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gma
> il.com
_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sparklylicious%40gmail.com