[nagdu] Correcting others' dogs WAS Re: Guide dog schools

Fri Feb 14 17:01:10 UTC 2014

My husband always adds the dog to the count of people to be seated at a 
restaurant... It usually gets a laugh, but I find myself waiting for the 
day they actually set a place for her... She wouldn't mind. /lol/

Good question about correcting other people's dogs. I've known some 
handlers who do that so freely that one wonders how they find time to 
manage their own dog. I try to steer clear of them since things would 
turn ugly if they tried laying hands on my dog or her leash!

Here's my general view on run-of-the-mill stuff:

If I'm being a stupid handler, tell me and let me mend my ways. If my 
dog is acting up, back off and let me deal with it. If you observe 
something useful while you are letting me deal with my own dog, hold it 
until I have the dog in hand, then bring it up for discussion. And so on.

When I've found myself wondering if I should intervene in someone else's 
handling, it's usually in the matter of sprawling or something like 
that. At what point is it acceptable to mention that the dog is creating 
problems lying where it is across a busy restaurant aisle? Is it my job 
to bring it up, or the restaurant manager's? Is there some pre-defined 
tact for bringing up the subject? Um... I never know.

I've never run into a situation where a dog was out of control so the 
handler couldn't deal, but I have wondered what I would do if I were. 
Say the dog is just off its nut about something, and the handler is 
clearly not strong enough to keep hold of it. Grabbing the leash to add 
strength against the pull might be helpful then... Only what would my 
own dog be doing if there's that kind of excitement going on? Even if 
she's being a perfect little professional, wouldn't her presence add to 
the other dog's excitement if I reach out to the leash? I've decided I 
would rather not find out. I can't remember what tale or incident caused 
me to even consider that scenario, but I've wondered about it for some 
reason. Hm...

What if another dog is actively interfering with me or mine, and the 
handler isn't doing anything about it? I still think the first thing to 
do is to address the handler, unless there's some urgent need to deal 
with the immediate problem. Another good option is to clear out, since 
my first responsibility is my own dang dog. Also, if the other dog is 
misbehaving because of my dog, the most helpful thing I can do is remove 
my dog so the handler can deal without the added stimulus.

I dunno... I can think of few scenarios in which I might consider 
interfering with someone else's guide without their asking, and most of 
those are highly unlikely. Ultimately, I am not anybody else's dog's 
trainer, and I am not the Guide Dog Police. /smile/ Even if someone were 
to ask how to deal with behavior X, I would be more likely to use my own 
dog to demonstrate my method than to start mucking with their dog.

Tami

On 02/13/2014 06:11 PM, Darla Rogers wrote:
> You're silly; I think you should buy him a steak and let him sit right up beside eye to eat it. <lol>
> 	That does beg the question:  Is it ever appropriate to correct another handler's dog?  If so when.  If not, why not?
> Darla & handsome Huck
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of craig.heaps at comcast.net
> Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 5:32 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide dog schools
>
> So having Chase sit on my lap during dinner at a restaurant is not appropriate?  He's going to be disappointed.
>
> Craig and Chase
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Julie McGinnity" <kaybaycar at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 2:47:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide dog schools
>
> Oh yes, we learned this at Guiding Eyes, and we had to keep our dogs under chairs at mealtimes and during lectures.  My dog hated being placed under chairs.  She would sneakily keep backing up while under a chair, and then surprise, she would be in the row behind me.  If I tried to fix this by using a tighter leash with her, it sort of worked, but she would not stay put.  I do miss my stubbern girl...  Do remember that sometimes handlers, especially first timers, do not realize what their dog is doing after they put them down in one position.  It takes us a while to realize that yes, our dogs really will move if they are so inclined.
>
> On 2/13/14, Darla Rogers <djrogers0628 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi Lynn,
>>
>>          Maybe it is thought by some schools that putting the dog out
>> of the way is a no-brainer, b but newbies need to be taught how to do
>> it; I finally have a dog who will put head under chair, so I can keep
>> nose out of trouble.
>> <giggle>
>> Darla & Nosy Huck
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of L Gwizdak
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 5:27 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide dog schools
>>
>> Yeah, you'd think the schools would stress putting the dog out of the way.
>> The people from one of the other schools did say their school didn't
>> really stress this or teach it.  Or they were telling me a fib and
>> they really were sleeping throough that lecture!
>>
>> Lyn and Landon
>> "Asking who's the man and who's the woman in an LGBT relationship is
>> like asking which chopstick is the fork" - Unknown
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <barbandzoe at comcast.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 8:47 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide dog schools
>>
>>
>>> That was an interesting letter. When I was young, in the 60"s and 70's.
>>> most all the dogs I met were from TSE. they seemed well behaved and
>>> good in public. But when you said that many schools don't have the
>>> person tuck the dog under a table or chair when out with other people
>> seems odd to me.
>>> I would think they would have you do that just for safety of the dog,
>>> so he doesn't get stepped on, and for the people around, so they
>>> don't
>> trip.
>>> when I have my pets out with me they are under the chair or table for
>>> just that reason.
>>> Barb
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>
>>> From: "L Gwizdak" <leg1950 at cox.net>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 6, 2014 1:21:48 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide dog schools
>>>
>>> Hi folks,
>>> Yeah, I'm actually alive! I just don't get much time to post these days.
>>> We are undergoing massisve changes at our blind center (which I got
>>> started a little over a year ago with some bigotry by board members)
>>> and we are in a Mayoral race here in San Diego.
>>>
>>> Anyway, I have my dogs from The Seeing Eye and I love the place. Yes,
>>> friendly but professional. To really understand the philosophy and
>>> practises of TSE, read Love in the Lead by Peter Putnam. When you
>>> look at it and how society was back in 1929 towards the blind, TSE
>>> was REVOLUTIONARY in its approach to dealing with blind people. It
>>> does remind me of an early version of NFB way before there actually
>>> was the NFB. There were progressively thinking folks both sighted and
>>> blind involved with the school from Day 1.
>>>
>>> We see some of the customs of TSE a bit archaic but it is
>>> understandable when you read the history behind the customs. Now
>>> things are very much less formal than years gone by. We still dress a
>>> bit nicer for lunch but not the dresses for women and ties and
>>> jackets for men anymore. For both sexes, a nice top and even nice
>>> jeans are fine nowadays. At lunch, that's when the school's whole
>>> staff, employees, administration folks, kennel folks, vetrinarian
>>> staff, and visitors gather in the dining room for lunch. We students
>>> use this as a training opportunity as the dining room is set up like
>>> a restaurant than all but the students and our trainers are already
>>> seated and eating when we arrive in the dining room. We have to work
>>> our dogs past their tables to get to our tables - just like you do in
>>> a restaurant.
>>>
>>> TSE also sees blind adults as we are - adults just like any other adults.
>>> We are treated as such with respect. We can respect ourselves as well.
>>> No paternalism at TSE as far as I could see.
>>>
>>> I do see that our training and handling of our dogs a bit more strict
>>> while we are at TSE. Emphasis is on getting our dogs under control
>>> and out of the way when hanging out or in the public areas of the school.
>>> After we recieve harnesses, we are expected to work the dogs in
>>> harness in all areas except for the student dorm wing. TSE prides
>>> itself on well trained and well behaved guide dogs and our training
>>> to keep this up. It makes us as blind handlers look good and the
>>> demeanor of the dogs looks good and a positive face is shown to the
>>> general public when we all go home with our dogs. A fantastic
>>> compliment is when someone says, "I didn't know there was a dog in
>>> here! How quiet and wwell behaved it is!"
>>>
>>> I think most schools also teach these skills in having a well trained
>>> and well behaved guide. They want their school to look good to the
>>> public as well. But, I think there are some areas where other schools
>>> don't seem to place as much priority on making sure your dog is out
>>> of the way when we are seated at a restaurant or a meeting. At my
>>> blind center, dogs are sprawled ouot behind people's chairs instead
>>> of under the tables or next to the chairs with the dog's butt under the table.
>>> I've asked people about their training and they said that they didn't
>>> get taught to pay attention to where their dog was. And some schools
>>> have very long leashes.
>>>
>>> This is not any smack against other schools. Just observations with
>>> people I'm around who have dogs from other schools.
>>>
>>> Take care all and before you know it you'll be swealtering in
>>> horrible summer heat and all the snow and ice will be a distant memory!
>>>
>>> Lyn and Landon
>>> "Asking who's the man and who's the woman in an LGBT relationship is
>>> like asking which chopstick is the fork" - Unknown
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Aleeha Dudley" <blindcowgirl1993 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 4:40 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide dog schools
>>>
>>>
>>>> I found the environment at the Seeing Eye very family ish. I had my
>>>> share of personal issues while I was there and the staff and trainers
>>>> were nothing but helpful. The trainer on duty at night would often
>>>> hang around the students. We really got to know our specific trainers
>>>> and I have nothing but good things to say about the program and its
>>>> staff. I did not find it too formal and several times I benefited
>>> >from knowing the reasons for some of the rules.
>>>> Aleeha and Dallas
>>>> On 2/6/2014 2:42 AM, Julie McGinnity wrote:
>>>>> Hi Tracey,
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree with Ravin. I have heard the same things about the Seeing
>>>>> Eye, though I would never say them myself since I have never
>>>>> attended there. I know TSE turns out good dogs, and I have heard
>>>>> good things about the training staff.
>>>>>
>>>>> But yes, I felt like there was a family atmosphere at GEB. On our
>>>>> time off, the trainers would come out and chat with us, work with
>>>>> us, or help to answer any questions we had. It was clear that they
>>>>> were there to work with us and instruct us on how to use our dogs,
>>>>> but they never had an attitude of cold professionalism. They were
>>>>> very friendly, open, and professional in an informal way. Perhaps
>>>>> this treatment is not for everyone, but I loved it when I was there.
>>>>>
>>>>> That actually happened to me. My dog jumped on my bed to lay next
>>>>> to me in the middle of the night, without me realizing it, and the
>>>>> trainer saw this in the morning. I suppose my curtains weren't
>>>>> fully drawn... I thought we were going to be in sooooo much
>>>>> trouble, but the trainer actually thought it was hysterical, and
>>>>> she realized I probably didn't realize what my dog had done. Well,
>>>>> and she knew the dog in question... How she got up there while on
>>>>> tie down, I still do not understand. The point is that the trainers
>>>>> and staff get to know us as people as well as dog users, and they
>>>>> are very chill and encouraging.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2/5/14, Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Raven.
>>>>>> I have experienced the same level of helpfulness at TSE and GDB. I
>>>>>> guess I
>>>>>>
>>>>>> just don't call it by the same name.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When I've been caught by a trainer doing something against the
>>>>>> rules, he or
>>>>>>
>>>>>> she has not exactly scolded me, but has pointed out why the rule
>>>>>> is in place.
>>>>>> I think that's better than ignoring the transgression. It makes
>>>>>> sure I know
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the reason, but leaves the choice up to me.
>>>>>> Sorry, but I've met plenty of Guiding Eyes graduates who don't
>>>>>> exercise any
>>>>>>
>>>>>> discipline over their dogs at all, or so it seems to me. I've also
>>>>>> met some
>>>>>>
>>>>>> who do, but, as usual, it's the slobs who stick out. Maybe I just
>>>>>> run into more GEB users around New York, too.
>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Raven Tolliver" <ravend729 at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 11:23 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide dog schools
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Tracy,
>>>>>>> As someone who attended GEB, I believe the family atmosphere that
>>>>>>> most students' experience has more to do with the level of
>>>>>>> attention and help they receive from everyone, not just their
>>>>>>> assigned
>> instructor.
>>>>>>> The instructors, nurses, and kitchen staff were all willing to
>>>>>>> accommodate students' needs and requests. If anyone needed help,
>>>>>>> there was always someone available who could assist you or answer
>>>>>>> your questions. They treated us with the most care and
>>>>>>> compassion, you know, like family members.
>>>>>>> Also, the atmosphere during my class was very casual and laid-back.
>>>>>>> None of the staff were uptight about anything. They would eat
>>>>>>> meals with us, joke around with us, and they never talked to any
>>>>>>> of us as if we were below them.
>>>>>>> In addition, while GEB set boundaries for the dogs in dorm rooms,
>>>>>>> the instructors never jumped down anyone's throat for not
>>>>>>> sticking to those boundaries. For instance, a friend of mine
>>>>>>> allowed her dog up on her bed. An instructor visited her to talk
>>>>>>> about something and saw this, but the instructor did not scold
>>>>>>> her about it at all. Another time, my instructor walked back to
>>>>>>> my room with me to look at something. When we entered my room, my
>>>>>>> dog was freely
>> roaming my room.
>>>>>>> Now, we had only been together for 2 weeks. He had left my cheese
>>>>>>> and crackers on the night table untouched, the food bin in the
>>>>>>> open closet untouched, and the plastic waste bin on the ground
>>>>>>> untouched. My instructor did not scold me about this at all. She
>>>>>>> only commented that I had a very good dog.
>>>>>>> So that familial atmosphere has nothing to do with the negative
>>>>>>> things you listed. It is about the way staff interact with
>>>>>>> students. Of course, we associate it with our own school because
>>>>>>> that's the experience we have to speak of. Not because our school
>>>>>>> is hovering over us like helicopter parents, or because other
>>>>>>> schools don't measure up, or because other schools are below ours.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2/5/14, Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I saw someone here with a Guiding Eyes dog trot out the old
>>>>>>>> chestnut about how formal The Seeing Eye is. I guess it was
>>>>>>>> formal, 40 years ago, but it hasn't been so for quite a long
>>>>>>>> time. It's amazing how long that idea is sticking around.
>>>>>>>> To me, the atmosphere at TSE was like that at GDB, what I call
>>>>>>>> friendly but
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> professional.
>>>>>>>> I often hear people talk about the "family atmosphere" of their
>>>>>>>> school.
>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> never sure what that means. Does it mean people who feel they
>>>>>>>> can poke into
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> my personal business? Does it mean people who gossip about
>>>>>>>> everyone else?
>>>>>>>> Does it mean we're us, and they're the big smelly them?
>>>>>>>> None of these things appeal to me. I'm more comfortable with
>>>>>>>> friendly professional--we like each other, but mainly we're here
>>>>>>>> to do a great job together.
>>>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Raven
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>>
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