[nagdu] Correcting others' dogs WAS Re: Guide dog schools

sheila sleigland at bresnan.net
Sat Feb 15 07:43:35 UTC 2014


I'm in total agreement here. Everyone should have the time needed to 
handle there own dog. If I need or want someone to hold tres's leash 
I'll ask if I don't ask then hands off please.
On 2/14/2014 10:56 AM, Tracy Carcione wrote:
> Tami, I totally agree with what you've outlined.  If my dog is acting 
> up, and I don't seem to be doing anything about it, after a fair 
> chance, feel free to tell me.  But, if you start grabbing my leash, or 
> putting your mitts on my dog, and I'm not so sick you've already 
> called the med techs, then you'd better have on your flame-retardant 
> suit, 'cause you is gonna get blasted.
>
> By fair chance, I mean, if my dog is acting up, give me a little time 
> to try to deal with it before jumping in with your 2 cents.
>
> I mean the rhetorical, general, you, not Tami or anyone particular.
> Tracy
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tami Jarvis" <tami at poodlemutt.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, February 14, 2014 12:01 PM
> Subject: [nagdu] Correcting others' dogs WAS Re: Guide dog schools
>
>
>> My husband always adds the dog to the count of people to be seated at 
>> a restaurant... It usually gets a laugh, but I find myself waiting 
>> for the day they actually set a place for her... She wouldn't mind. 
>> /lol/
>>
>> Good question about correcting other people's dogs. I've known some 
>> handlers who do that so freely that one wonders how they find time to 
>> manage their own dog. I try to steer clear of them since things would 
>> turn ugly if they tried laying hands on my dog or her leash!
>>
>> Here's my general view on run-of-the-mill stuff:
>>
>> If I'm being a stupid handler, tell me and let me mend my ways. If my 
>> dog is acting up, back off and let me deal with it. If you observe 
>> something useful while you are letting me deal with my own dog, hold 
>> it until I have the dog in hand, then bring it up for discussion. And 
>> so on.
>>
>> When I've found myself wondering if I should intervene in someone 
>> else's handling, it's usually in the matter of sprawling or something 
>> like that. At what point is it acceptable to mention that the dog is 
>> creating problems lying where it is across a busy restaurant aisle? 
>> Is it my job to bring it up, or the restaurant manager's? Is there 
>> some pre-defined tact for bringing up the subject? Um... I never know.
>>
>> I've never run into a situation where a dog was out of control so the 
>> handler couldn't deal, but I have wondered what I would do if I were. 
>> Say the dog is just off its nut about something, and the handler is 
>> clearly not strong enough to keep hold of it. Grabbing the leash to 
>> add strength against the pull might be helpful then... Only what 
>> would my own dog be doing if there's that kind of excitement going 
>> on? Even if she's being a perfect little professional, wouldn't her 
>> presence add to the other dog's excitement if I reach out to the 
>> leash? I've decided I would rather not find out. I can't remember 
>> what tale or incident caused me to even consider that scenario, but 
>> I've wondered about it for some reason. Hm...
>>
>> What if another dog is actively interfering with me or mine, and the 
>> handler isn't doing anything about it? I still think the first thing 
>> to do is to address the handler, unless there's some urgent need to 
>> deal with the immediate problem. Another good option is to clear out, 
>> since my first responsibility is my own dang dog. Also, if the other 
>> dog is misbehaving because of my dog, the most helpful thing I can do 
>> is remove my dog so the handler can deal without the added stimulus.
>>
>> I dunno... I can think of few scenarios in which I might consider 
>> interfering with someone else's guide without their asking, and most 
>> of those are highly unlikely. Ultimately, I am not anybody else's 
>> dog's trainer, and I am not the Guide Dog Police. /smile/ Even if 
>> someone were to ask how to deal with behavior X, I would be more 
>> likely to use my own dog to demonstrate my method than to start 
>> mucking with their dog.
>>
>> Tami
>>
>> On 02/13/2014 06:11 PM, Darla Rogers wrote:
>>> You're silly; I think you should buy him a steak and let him sit 
>>> right up beside eye to eat it. <lol>
>>> That does beg the question:  Is it ever appropriate to correct 
>>> another handler's dog?  If so when.  If not, why not?
>>> Darla & handsome Huck
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
>>> craig.heaps at comcast.net
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 5:32 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide dog schools
>>>
>>> So having Chase sit on my lap during dinner at a restaurant is not 
>>> appropriate?  He's going to be disappointed.
>>>
>>> Craig and Chase
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>
>>> From: "Julie McGinnity" <kaybaycar at gmail.com>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog 
>>> Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 2:47:17 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide dog schools
>>>
>>> Oh yes, we learned this at Guiding Eyes, and we had to keep our dogs 
>>> under chairs at mealtimes and during lectures.  My dog hated being 
>>> placed under chairs.  She would sneakily keep backing up while under 
>>> a chair, and then surprise, she would be in the row behind me.  If I 
>>> tried to fix this by using a tighter leash with her, it sort of 
>>> worked, but she would not stay put.  I do miss my stubbern girl...  
>>> Do remember that sometimes handlers, especially first timers, do not 
>>> realize what their dog is doing after they put them down in one 
>>> position.  It takes us a while to realize that yes, our dogs really 
>>> will move if they are so inclined.
>>>
>>> On 2/13/14, Darla Rogers <djrogers0628 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi Lynn,
>>>>
>>>>          Maybe it is thought by some schools that putting the dog out
>>>> of the way is a no-brainer, b but newbies need to be taught how to do
>>>> it; I finally have a dog who will put head under chair, so I can keep
>>>> nose out of trouble.
>>>> <giggle>
>>>> Darla & Nosy Huck
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of L Gwizdak
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 5:27 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide dog schools
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, you'd think the schools would stress putting the dog out of 
>>>> the way.
>>>> The people from one of the other schools did say their school didn't
>>>> really stress this or teach it.  Or they were telling me a fib and
>>>> they really were sleeping throough that lecture!
>>>>
>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>> "Asking who's the man and who's the woman in an LGBT relationship is
>>>> like asking which chopstick is the fork" - Unknown
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: <barbandzoe at comcast.net>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 8:47 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide dog schools
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> That was an interesting letter. When I was young, in the 60"s and 
>>>>> 70's.
>>>>> most all the dogs I met were from TSE. they seemed well behaved and
>>>>> good in public. But when you said that many schools don't have the
>>>>> person tuck the dog under a table or chair when out with other people
>>>> seems odd to me.
>>>>> I would think they would have you do that just for safety of the dog,
>>>>> so he doesn't get stepped on, and for the people around, so they
>>>>> don't
>>>> trip.
>>>>> when I have my pets out with me they are under the chair or table for
>>>>> just that reason.
>>>>> Barb
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>
>>>>> From: "L Gwizdak" <leg1950 at cox.net>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 6, 2014 1:21:48 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide dog schools
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi folks,
>>>>> Yeah, I'm actually alive! I just don't get much time to post these 
>>>>> days.
>>>>> We are undergoing massisve changes at our blind center (which I got
>>>>> started a little over a year ago with some bigotry by board members)
>>>>> and we are in a Mayoral race here in San Diego.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway, I have my dogs from The Seeing Eye and I love the place. Yes,
>>>>> friendly but professional. To really understand the philosophy and
>>>>> practises of TSE, read Love in the Lead by Peter Putnam. When you
>>>>> look at it and how society was back in 1929 towards the blind, TSE
>>>>> was REVOLUTIONARY in its approach to dealing with blind people. It
>>>>> does remind me of an early version of NFB way before there actually
>>>>> was the NFB. There were progressively thinking folks both sighted and
>>>>> blind involved with the school from Day 1.
>>>>>
>>>>> We see some of the customs of TSE a bit archaic but it is
>>>>> understandable when you read the history behind the customs. Now
>>>>> things are very much less formal than years gone by. We still dress a
>>>>> bit nicer for lunch but not the dresses for women and ties and
>>>>> jackets for men anymore. For both sexes, a nice top and even nice
>>>>> jeans are fine nowadays. At lunch, that's when the school's whole
>>>>> staff, employees, administration folks, kennel folks, vetrinarian
>>>>> staff, and visitors gather in the dining room for lunch. We students
>>>>> use this as a training opportunity as the dining room is set up like
>>>>> a restaurant than all but the students and our trainers are already
>>>>> seated and eating when we arrive in the dining room. We have to work
>>>>> our dogs past their tables to get to our tables - just like you do in
>>>>> a restaurant.
>>>>>
>>>>> TSE also sees blind adults as we are - adults just like any other 
>>>>> adults.
>>>>> We are treated as such with respect. We can respect ourselves as 
>>>>> well.
>>>>> No paternalism at TSE as far as I could see.
>>>>>
>>>>> I do see that our training and handling of our dogs a bit more strict
>>>>> while we are at TSE. Emphasis is on getting our dogs under control
>>>>> and out of the way when hanging out or in the public areas of the 
>>>>> school.
>>>>> After we recieve harnesses, we are expected to work the dogs in
>>>>> harness in all areas except for the student dorm wing. TSE prides
>>>>> itself on well trained and well behaved guide dogs and our training
>>>>> to keep this up. It makes us as blind handlers look good and the
>>>>> demeanor of the dogs looks good and a positive face is shown to the
>>>>> general public when we all go home with our dogs. A fantastic
>>>>> compliment is when someone says, "I didn't know there was a dog in
>>>>> here! How quiet and wwell behaved it is!"
>>>>>
>>>>> I think most schools also teach these skills in having a well trained
>>>>> and well behaved guide. They want their school to look good to the
>>>>> public as well. But, I think there are some areas where other schools
>>>>> don't seem to place as much priority on making sure your dog is out
>>>>> of the way when we are seated at a restaurant or a meeting. At my
>>>>> blind center, dogs are sprawled ouot behind people's chairs instead
>>>>> of under the tables or next to the chairs with the dog's butt 
>>>>> under the table.
>>>>> I've asked people about their training and they said that they didn't
>>>>> get taught to pay attention to where their dog was. And some schools
>>>>> have very long leashes.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is not any smack against other schools. Just observations with
>>>>> people I'm around who have dogs from other schools.
>>>>>
>>>>> Take care all and before you know it you'll be swealtering in
>>>>> horrible summer heat and all the snow and ice will be a distant 
>>>>> memory!
>>>>>
>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>> "Asking who's the man and who's the woman in an LGBT relationship is
>>>>> like asking which chopstick is the fork" - Unknown
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Aleeha Dudley" <blindcowgirl1993 at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 4:40 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide dog schools
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I found the environment at the Seeing Eye very family ish. I had my
>>>>>> share of personal issues while I was there and the staff and 
>>>>>> trainers
>>>>>> were nothing but helpful. The trainer on duty at night would often
>>>>>> hang around the students. We really got to know our specific 
>>>>>> trainers
>>>>>> and I have nothing but good things to say about the program and its
>>>>>> staff. I did not find it too formal and several times I benefited
>>>>> >from knowing the reasons for some of the rules.
>>>>>> Aleeha and Dallas
>>>>>> On 2/6/2014 2:42 AM, Julie McGinnity wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi Tracey,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I agree with Ravin. I have heard the same things about the Seeing
>>>>>>> Eye, though I would never say them myself since I have never
>>>>>>> attended there. I know TSE turns out good dogs, and I have heard
>>>>>>> good things about the training staff.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But yes, I felt like there was a family atmosphere at GEB. On our
>>>>>>> time off, the trainers would come out and chat with us, work with
>>>>>>> us, or help to answer any questions we had. It was clear that they
>>>>>>> were there to work with us and instruct us on how to use our dogs,
>>>>>>> but they never had an attitude of cold professionalism. They were
>>>>>>> very friendly, open, and professional in an informal way. Perhaps
>>>>>>> this treatment is not for everyone, but I loved it when I was 
>>>>>>> there.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That actually happened to me. My dog jumped on my bed to lay next
>>>>>>> to me in the middle of the night, without me realizing it, and the
>>>>>>> trainer saw this in the morning. I suppose my curtains weren't
>>>>>>> fully drawn... I thought we were going to be in sooooo much
>>>>>>> trouble, but the trainer actually thought it was hysterical, and
>>>>>>> she realized I probably didn't realize what my dog had done. Well,
>>>>>>> and she knew the dog in question... How she got up there while on
>>>>>>> tie down, I still do not understand. The point is that the trainers
>>>>>>> and staff get to know us as people as well as dog users, and they
>>>>>>> are very chill and encouraging.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2/5/14, Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi Raven.
>>>>>>>> I have experienced the same level of helpfulness at TSE and GDB. I
>>>>>>>> guess I
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> just don't call it by the same name.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When I've been caught by a trainer doing something against the
>>>>>>>> rules, he or
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> she has not exactly scolded me, but has pointed out why the rule
>>>>>>>> is in place.
>>>>>>>> I think that's better than ignoring the transgression. It makes
>>>>>>>> sure I know
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the reason, but leaves the choice up to me.
>>>>>>>> Sorry, but I've met plenty of Guiding Eyes graduates who don't
>>>>>>>> exercise any
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> discipline over their dogs at all, or so it seems to me. I've also
>>>>>>>> met some
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> who do, but, as usual, it's the slobs who stick out. Maybe I just
>>>>>>>> run into more GEB users around New York, too.
>>>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Raven Tolliver" <ravend729 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog 
>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 11:23 AM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide dog schools
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Tracy,
>>>>>>>>> As someone who attended GEB, I believe the family atmosphere that
>>>>>>>>> most students' experience has more to do with the level of
>>>>>>>>> attention and help they receive from everyone, not just their
>>>>>>>>> assigned
>>>> instructor.
>>>>>>>>> The instructors, nurses, and kitchen staff were all willing to
>>>>>>>>> accommodate students' needs and requests. If anyone needed help,
>>>>>>>>> there was always someone available who could assist you or answer
>>>>>>>>> your questions. They treated us with the most care and
>>>>>>>>> compassion, you know, like family members.
>>>>>>>>> Also, the atmosphere during my class was very casual and 
>>>>>>>>> laid-back.
>>>>>>>>> None of the staff were uptight about anything. They would eat
>>>>>>>>> meals with us, joke around with us, and they never talked to any
>>>>>>>>> of us as if we were below them.
>>>>>>>>> In addition, while GEB set boundaries for the dogs in dorm rooms,
>>>>>>>>> the instructors never jumped down anyone's throat for not
>>>>>>>>> sticking to those boundaries. For instance, a friend of mine
>>>>>>>>> allowed her dog up on her bed. An instructor visited her to talk
>>>>>>>>> about something and saw this, but the instructor did not scold
>>>>>>>>> her about it at all. Another time, my instructor walked back to
>>>>>>>>> my room with me to look at something. When we entered my room, my
>>>>>>>>> dog was freely
>>>> roaming my room.
>>>>>>>>> Now, we had only been together for 2 weeks. He had left my cheese
>>>>>>>>> and crackers on the night table untouched, the food bin in the
>>>>>>>>> open closet untouched, and the plastic waste bin on the ground
>>>>>>>>> untouched. My instructor did not scold me about this at all. She
>>>>>>>>> only commented that I had a very good dog.
>>>>>>>>> So that familial atmosphere has nothing to do with the negative
>>>>>>>>> things you listed. It is about the way staff interact with
>>>>>>>>> students. Of course, we associate it with our own school because
>>>>>>>>> that's the experience we have to speak of. Not because our school
>>>>>>>>> is hovering over us like helicopter parents, or because other
>>>>>>>>> schools don't measure up, or because other schools are below 
>>>>>>>>> ours.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 2/5/14, Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I saw someone here with a Guiding Eyes dog trot out the old
>>>>>>>>>> chestnut about how formal The Seeing Eye is. I guess it was
>>>>>>>>>> formal, 40 years ago, but it hasn't been so for quite a long
>>>>>>>>>> time. It's amazing how long that idea is sticking around.
>>>>>>>>>> To me, the atmosphere at TSE was like that at GDB, what I call
>>>>>>>>>> friendly but
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> professional.
>>>>>>>>>> I often hear people talk about the "family atmosphere" of their
>>>>>>>>>> school.
>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> never sure what that means. Does it mean people who feel they
>>>>>>>>>> can poke into
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> my personal business? Does it mean people who gossip about
>>>>>>>>>> everyone else?
>>>>>>>>>> Does it mean we're us, and they're the big smelly them?
>>>>>>>>>> None of these things appeal to me. I'm more comfortable with
>>>>>>>>>> friendly professional--we like each other, but mainly we're here
>>>>>>>>>> to do a great job together.
>>>>>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>> Raven
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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