[nagdu] Correcting others' dogs WAS Re: Guide dog schools

Sun Feb 16 20:11:37 UTC 2014

I would simply never correct anothers dog! Giving commands while offleash is 
one thing but correcting them, no. If someone was correcting my dog I would 
be quite upset! Unless Holly is doing something life threatening, I wouldn't 
allow anyone to leash correct her. Telling her to sit or no or come while 
offleash is different but correction is my job!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Raven Tolliver" <ravend729 at gmail.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2014 12:51 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Correcting others' dogs WAS Re: Guide dog schools


> As someone who finds no need of a leash correction, correcting another
> handler's dog is not really a problem. I simply redirect the dog. For
> instance, I was recently in a situation where I was hanging on to a
> friend's dog. The dog's head was glued down in the grass--very nosy
> girl. I quickly got the dog's attention by snapping my fingers. I then
> cued a sit-stay. That head can't be on the ground if she's sitting.
> Every few minutes I would praise her up for staying and being
> delightful. For something like lunging, I would have done the same
> thing. The key is to get the dog's attention, then cue the dog to do
> something desirable or incompatible with the unwanted behavior. No
> physical corrections needed. Just make sure the handler is okay with
> their dog being given treats!
>
> On 2/15/14, Darla Rogers <djrogers0628 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi Sheila,
>>
>> But what if the dog you are holding is doing something you know the
>> handler wouldn't want; I use as minimal correction as I can, but I won't
>> hold a dog lunging at the end of a leash without doing something about 
>> it.
>> I'm generally not in favor of correcting anyone's dog, but, like
>> children, if the dog is in my care, part of my responsibility is to keep
>> the
>> dog safe, and if it warrants a correction, I'll do it, but I always 
>> assume
>> the dog needs just a "no" or a slight leash correction.
>> Darla & handsome Huck
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of sheila
>> Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2014 1:44 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Correcting others' dogs WAS Re: Guide dog schools
>>
>> I'm in total agreement here. Everyone should have the time needed to 
>> handle
>> there own dog. If I need or want someone to hold tres's leash I'll ask if 
>> I
>> don't ask then hands off please.
>> On 2/14/2014 10:56 AM, Tracy Carcione wrote:
>>> Tami, I totally agree with what you've outlined.  If my dog is acting
>>> up, and I don't seem to be doing anything about it, after a fair
>>> chance, feel free to tell me.  But, if you start grabbing my leash, or
>>> putting your mitts on my dog, and I'm not so sick you've already
>>> called the med techs, then you'd better have on your flame-retardant
>>> suit, 'cause you is gonna get blasted.
>>>
>>> By fair chance, I mean, if my dog is acting up, give me a little time
>>> to try to deal with it before jumping in with your 2 cents.
>>>
>>> I mean the rhetorical, general, you, not Tami or anyone particular.
>>> Tracy
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tami Jarvis" <tami at poodlemutt.com>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, February 14, 2014 12:01 PM
>>> Subject: [nagdu] Correcting others' dogs WAS Re: Guide dog schools
>>>
>>>
>>>> My husband always adds the dog to the count of people to be seated at
>>>> a restaurant... It usually gets a laugh, but I find myself waiting
>>>> for the day they actually set a place for her... She wouldn't mind.
>>>> /lol/
>>>>
>>>> Good question about correcting other people's dogs. I've known some
>>>> handlers who do that so freely that one wonders how they find time to
>>>> manage their own dog. I try to steer clear of them since things would
>>>> turn ugly if they tried laying hands on my dog or her leash!
>>>>
>>>> Here's my general view on run-of-the-mill stuff:
>>>>
>>>> If I'm being a stupid handler, tell me and let me mend my ways. If my
>>>> dog is acting up, back off and let me deal with it. If you observe
>>>> something useful while you are letting me deal with my own dog, hold
>>>> it until I have the dog in hand, then bring it up for discussion. And
>>>> so on.
>>>>
>>>> When I've found myself wondering if I should intervene in someone
>>>> else's handling, it's usually in the matter of sprawling or something
>>>> like that. At what point is it acceptable to mention that the dog is
>>>> creating problems lying where it is across a busy restaurant aisle?
>>>> Is it my job to bring it up, or the restaurant manager's? Is there
>>>> some pre-defined tact for bringing up the subject? Um... I never know.
>>>>
>>>> I've never run into a situation where a dog was out of control so the
>>>> handler couldn't deal, but I have wondered what I would do if I were.
>>>> Say the dog is just off its nut about something, and the handler is
>>>> clearly not strong enough to keep hold of it. Grabbing the leash to
>>>> add strength against the pull might be helpful then... Only what
>>>> would my own dog be doing if there's that kind of excitement going
>>>> on? Even if she's being a perfect little professional, wouldn't her
>>>> presence add to the other dog's excitement if I reach out to the
>>>> leash? I've decided I would rather not find out. I can't remember
>>>> what tale or incident caused me to even consider that scenario, but
>>>> I've wondered about it for some reason. Hm...
>>>>
>>>> What if another dog is actively interfering with me or mine, and the
>>>> handler isn't doing anything about it? I still think the first thing
>>>> to do is to address the handler, unless there's some urgent need to
>>>> deal with the immediate problem. Another good option is to clear out,
>>>> since my first responsibility is my own dang dog. Also, if the other
>>>> dog is misbehaving because of my dog, the most helpful thing I can do
>>>> is remove my dog so the handler can deal without the added stimulus.
>>>>
>>>> I dunno... I can think of few scenarios in which I might consider
>>>> interfering with someone else's guide without their asking, and most
>>>> of those are highly unlikely. Ultimately, I am not anybody else's
>>>> dog's trainer, and I am not the Guide Dog Police. /smile/ Even if
>>>> someone were to ask how to deal with behavior X, I would be more
>>>> likely to use my own dog to demonstrate my method than to start
>>>> mucking with their dog.
>>>>
>>>> Tami
>>>>
>>>> On 02/13/2014 06:11 PM, Darla Rogers wrote:
>>>>> You're silly; I think you should buy him a steak and let him sit
>>>>> right up beside eye to eat it. <lol> That does beg the question:  Is
>>>>> it ever appropriate to correct another handler's dog?  If so when.
>>>>> If not, why not?
>>>>> Darla & handsome Huck
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>> craig.heaps at comcast.net
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 5:32 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide dog schools
>>>>>
>>>>> So having Chase sit on my lap during dinner at a restaurant is not
>>>>> appropriate?  He's going to be disappointed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Craig and Chase
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>
>>>>> From: "Julie McGinnity" <kaybaycar at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>> Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 2:47:17 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide dog schools
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh yes, we learned this at Guiding Eyes, and we had to keep our dogs
>>>>> under chairs at mealtimes and during lectures.  My dog hated being
>>>>> placed under chairs.  She would sneakily keep backing up while under
>>>>> a chair, and then surprise, she would be in the row behind me.  If I
>>>>> tried to fix this by using a tighter leash with her, it sort of
>>>>> worked, but she would not stay put.  I do miss my stubbern girl...
>>>>> Do remember that sometimes handlers, especially first timers, do not
>>>>> realize what their dog is doing after they put them down in one
>>>>> position.  It takes us a while to realize that yes, our dogs really
>>>>> will move if they are so inclined.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2/13/14, Darla Rogers <djrogers0628 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Lynn,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>          Maybe it is thought by some schools that putting the dog
>>>>>> out of the way is a no-brainer, b but newbies need to be taught how
>>>>>> to do it; I finally have a dog who will put head under chair, so I
>>>>>> can keep nose out of trouble.
>>>>>> <giggle>
>>>>>> Darla & Nosy Huck
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of L
>>>>>> Gwizdak
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 5:27 PM
>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide dog schools
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yeah, you'd think the schools would stress putting the dog out of
>>>>>> the way.
>>>>>> The people from one of the other schools did say their school
>>>>>> didn't really stress this or teach it.  Or they were telling me a
>>>>>> fib and they really were sleeping throough that lecture!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>>> "Asking who's the man and who's the woman in an LGBT relationship
>>>>>> is like asking which chopstick is the fork" - Unknown
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: <barbandzoe at comcast.net>
>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 8:47 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide dog schools
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That was an interesting letter. When I was young, in the 60"s and
>>>>>>> 70's.
>>>>>>> most all the dogs I met were from TSE. they seemed well behaved
>>>>>>> and good in public. But when you said that many schools don't have
>>>>>>> the person tuck the dog under a table or chair when out with other
>>>>>>> people
>>>>>> seems odd to me.
>>>>>>> I would think they would have you do that just for safety of the
>>>>>>> dog, so he doesn't get stepped on, and for the people around, so
>>>>>>> they don't
>>>>>> trip.
>>>>>>> when I have my pets out with me they are under the chair or table
>>>>>>> for just that reason.
>>>>>>> Barb
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: "L Gwizdak" <leg1950 at cox.net>
>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog 
>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 6, 2014 1:21:48 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide dog schools
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi folks,
>>>>>>> Yeah, I'm actually alive! I just don't get much time to post these
>>>>>>> days.
>>>>>>> We are undergoing massisve changes at our blind center (which I
>>>>>>> got started a little over a year ago with some bigotry by board
>>>>>>> members) and we are in a Mayoral race here in San Diego.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyway, I have my dogs from The Seeing Eye and I love the place.
>>>>>>> Yes, friendly but professional. To really understand the
>>>>>>> philosophy and practises of TSE, read Love in the Lead by Peter
>>>>>>> Putnam. When you look at it and how society was back in 1929
>>>>>>> towards the blind, TSE was REVOLUTIONARY in its approach to
>>>>>>> dealing with blind people. It does remind me of an early version
>>>>>>> of NFB way before there actually was the NFB. There were
>>>>>>> progressively thinking folks both sighted and blind involved with 
>>>>>>> the
>> school from Day 1.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We see some of the customs of TSE a bit archaic but it is
>>>>>>> understandable when you read the history behind the customs. Now
>>>>>>> things are very much less formal than years gone by. We still
>>>>>>> dress a bit nicer for lunch but not the dresses for women and ties
>>>>>>> and jackets for men anymore. For both sexes, a nice top and even
>>>>>>> nice jeans are fine nowadays. At lunch, that's when the school's
>>>>>>> whole staff, employees, administration folks, kennel folks,
>>>>>>> vetrinarian staff, and visitors gather in the dining room for
>>>>>>> lunch. We students use this as a training opportunity as the
>>>>>>> dining room is set up like a restaurant than all but the students
>>>>>>> and our trainers are already seated and eating when we arrive in
>>>>>>> the dining room. We have to work our dogs past their tables to get
>>>>>>> to our tables - just like you do in a restaurant.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> TSE also sees blind adults as we are - adults just like any other
>>>>>>> adults.
>>>>>>> We are treated as such with respect. We can respect ourselves as
>>>>>>> well.
>>>>>>> No paternalism at TSE as far as I could see.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I do see that our training and handling of our dogs a bit more
>>>>>>> strict while we are at TSE. Emphasis is on getting our dogs under
>>>>>>> control and out of the way when hanging out or in the public areas
>>>>>>> of the school.
>>>>>>> After we recieve harnesses, we are expected to work the dogs in
>>>>>>> harness in all areas except for the student dorm wing. TSE prides
>>>>>>> itself on well trained and well behaved guide dogs and our
>>>>>>> training to keep this up. It makes us as blind handlers look good
>>>>>>> and the demeanor of the dogs looks good and a positive face is
>>>>>>> shown to the general public when we all go home with our dogs. A
>>>>>>> fantastic compliment is when someone says, "I didn't know there
>>>>>>> was a dog in here! How quiet and wwell behaved it is!"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think most schools also teach these skills in having a well
>>>>>>> trained and well behaved guide. They want their school to look
>>>>>>> good to the public as well. But, I think there are some areas
>>>>>>> where other schools don't seem to place as much priority on making
>>>>>>> sure your dog is out of the way when we are seated at a restaurant
>>>>>>> or a meeting. At my blind center, dogs are sprawled ouot behind
>>>>>>> people's chairs instead of under the tables or next to the chairs
>>>>>>> with the dog's butt under the table.
>>>>>>> I've asked people about their training and they said that they
>>>>>>> didn't get taught to pay attention to where their dog was. And
>>>>>>> some schools have very long leashes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is not any smack against other schools. Just observations
>>>>>>> with people I'm around who have dogs from other schools.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Take care all and before you know it you'll be swealtering in
>>>>>>> horrible summer heat and all the snow and ice will be a distant
>>>>>>> memory!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>>>> "Asking who's the man and who's the woman in an LGBT relationship
>>>>>>> is like asking which chopstick is the fork" - Unknown
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Aleeha Dudley" <blindcowgirl1993 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 4:40 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide dog schools
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I found the environment at the Seeing Eye very family ish. I had
>>>>>>>> my share of personal issues while I was there and the staff and
>>>>>>>> trainers were nothing but helpful. The trainer on duty at night
>>>>>>>> would often hang around the students. We really got to know our
>>>>>>>> specific trainers and I have nothing but good things to say about
>>>>>>>> the program and its staff. I did not find it too formal and
>>>>>>>> several times I benefited
>>>>>>> >from knowing the reasons for some of the rules.
>>>>>>>> Aleeha and Dallas
>>>>>>>> On 2/6/2014 2:42 AM, Julie McGinnity wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hi Tracey,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I agree with Ravin. I have heard the same things about the
>>>>>>>>> Seeing Eye, though I would never say them myself since I have
>>>>>>>>> never attended there. I know TSE turns out good dogs, and I have
>>>>>>>>> heard good things about the training staff.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But yes, I felt like there was a family atmosphere at GEB. On
>>>>>>>>> our time off, the trainers would come out and chat with us, work
>>>>>>>>> with us, or help to answer any questions we had. It was clear
>>>>>>>>> that they were there to work with us and instruct us on how to
>>>>>>>>> use our dogs, but they never had an attitude of cold
>>>>>>>>> professionalism. They were very friendly, open, and professional
>>>>>>>>> in an informal way. Perhaps this treatment is not for everyone,
>>>>>>>>> but I loved it when I was there.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That actually happened to me. My dog jumped on my bed to lay
>>>>>>>>> next to me in the middle of the night, without me realizing it,
>>>>>>>>> and the trainer saw this in the morning. I suppose my curtains
>>>>>>>>> weren't fully drawn... I thought we were going to be in sooooo
>>>>>>>>> much trouble, but the trainer actually thought it was
>>>>>>>>> hysterical, and she realized I probably didn't realize what my
>>>>>>>>> dog had done. Well, and she knew the dog in question... How she
>>>>>>>>> got up there while on tie down, I still do not understand. The
>>>>>>>>> point is that the trainers and staff get to know us as people as
>>>>>>>>> well as dog users, and they are very chill and encouraging.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 2/5/14, Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Raven.
>>>>>>>>>> I have experienced the same level of helpfulness at TSE and
>>>>>>>>>> GDB. I guess I
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> just don't call it by the same name.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> When I've been caught by a trainer doing something against the
>>>>>>>>>> rules, he or
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> she has not exactly scolded me, but has pointed out why the
>>>>>>>>>> rule is in place.
>>>>>>>>>> I think that's better than ignoring the transgression. It makes
>>>>>>>>>> sure I know
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> the reason, but leaves the choice up to me.
>>>>>>>>>> Sorry, but I've met plenty of Guiding Eyes graduates who don't
>>>>>>>>>> exercise any
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> discipline over their dogs at all, or so it seems to me. I've
>>>>>>>>>> also met some
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> who do, but, as usual, it's the slobs who stick out. Maybe I
>>>>>>>>>> just run into more GEB users around New York, too.
>>>>>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>> From: "Raven Tolliver" <ravend729 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 11:23 AM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide dog schools
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Tracy,
>>>>>>>>>>> As someone who attended GEB, I believe the family atmosphere
>>>>>>>>>>> that most students' experience has more to do with the level
>>>>>>>>>>> of attention and help they receive from everyone, not just
>>>>>>>>>>> their assigned
>>>>>> instructor.
>>>>>>>>>>> The instructors, nurses, and kitchen staff were all willing to
>>>>>>>>>>> accommodate students' needs and requests. If anyone needed
>>>>>>>>>>> help, there was always someone available who could assist you
>>>>>>>>>>> or answer your questions. They treated us with the most care
>>>>>>>>>>> and compassion, you know, like family members.
>>>>>>>>>>> Also, the atmosphere during my class was very casual and
>>>>>>>>>>> laid-back.
>>>>>>>>>>> None of the staff were uptight about anything. They would eat
>>>>>>>>>>> meals with us, joke around with us, and they never talked to
>>>>>>>>>>> any of us as if we were below them.
>>>>>>>>>>> In addition, while GEB set boundaries for the dogs in dorm
>>>>>>>>>>> rooms, the instructors never jumped down anyone's throat for
>>>>>>>>>>> not sticking to those boundaries. For instance, a friend of
>>>>>>>>>>> mine allowed her dog up on her bed. An instructor visited her
>>>>>>>>>>> to talk about something and saw this, but the instructor did
>>>>>>>>>>> not scold her about it at all. Another time, my instructor
>>>>>>>>>>> walked back to my room with me to look at something. When we
>>>>>>>>>>> entered my room, my dog was freely
>>>>>> roaming my room.
>>>>>>>>>>> Now, we had only been together for 2 weeks. He had left my
>>>>>>>>>>> cheese and crackers on the night table untouched, the food bin
>>>>>>>>>>> in the open closet untouched, and the plastic waste bin on the
>>>>>>>>>>> ground untouched. My instructor did not scold me about this at
>>>>>>>>>>> all. She only commented that I had a very good dog.
>>>>>>>>>>> So that familial atmosphere has nothing to do with the
>>>>>>>>>>> negative things you listed. It is about the way staff interact
>>>>>>>>>>> with students. Of course, we associate it with our own school
>>>>>>>>>>> because that's the experience we have to speak of. Not because
>>>>>>>>>>> our school is hovering over us like helicopter parents, or
>>>>>>>>>>> because other schools don't measure up, or because other
>>>>>>>>>>> schools are below ours.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/5/14, Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I saw someone here with a Guiding Eyes dog trot out the old
>>>>>>>>>>>> chestnut about how formal The Seeing Eye is. I guess it was
>>>>>>>>>>>> formal, 40 years ago, but it hasn't been so for quite a long
>>>>>>>>>>>> time. It's amazing how long that idea is sticking around.
>>>>>>>>>>>> To me, the atmosphere at TSE was like that at GDB, what I
>>>>>>>>>>>> call friendly but
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> professional.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I often hear people talk about the "family atmosphere" of
>>>>>>>>>>>> their school.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> never sure what that means. Does it mean people who feel they
>>>>>>>>>>>> can poke into
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> my personal business? Does it mean people who gossip about
>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone else?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Does it mean we're us, and they're the big smelly them?
>>>>>>>>>>>> None of these things appeal to me. I'm more comfortable with
>>>>>>>>>>>> friendly professional--we like each other, but mainly we're
>>>>>>>>>>>> here to do a great job together.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Raven
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>
>
> -- 
> Raven
>
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