[nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs

Fri Feb 21 19:26:01 UTC 2014

Hi Tracy,

	Thank you for putting this in more concrete terms; there are things
you simply must do to survive, but some activities could be curtailed a
little until the dog is a little more secure.
Darla & Huck

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 7:26 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs

Hi Raven.
Oh, just you wait!  I bet there's not a retrain alive who hasn't called the
new dog by the old dog's name at least once.
When one of my classmates at TSE was having trouble with his new dog's name,
our trainer told him he couldn't go home until he remembered his dog's name!

I was much amused.
Sometimes I entertain myself by thinking of possible dog names.  I've
decided the best of them is Um, since, after 6 dogs, Um is the first thing
that comes to mind as I mentally run through the list to get to the right
name.

Also, though I try to not rush my new dogs, I do have to go to work and
commute. I've already taken at least 3 weeks off; taking another is out of
the question.  I probably wouldn't go out to dinner and a show after work,
at least for a couple weeks, but I do have things that need to get done.
Tracy

----- Original Message -----
From: "Raven Tolliver" <ravend729 at gmail.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs

Um, no. It was not all work-related. It was just a guy who likes to go
out and stay out a lot. Restaurants, stops at numerous stores, subway
stations and so on. I think it was just too much all at once. He also
might have been very hard on him expecting his dog to find things and
show him things the way his previous dog did. Too, this guy retired
his former guide on Friday and received the replacement the next
Wednesday, so there were a few things at play there. He would call his
new boy by his old guide's name. And he would constantly reminisce
about his former guide. That's understandable, but I think it played a
role in that dog stressing out.

On 2/20/14, Darla Rogers <djrogers0628 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Julie and Raven,
>
> Most schools, if memory serves, do tell you that; sometimes, you
> have to return to work, but it sounds like the person you refer to here
> could have added activities gradually.
> If they were all work-related, I don't know what to say.
> Darla & Huck
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Raven Tolliver
> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:50 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>
> Julie,
> I like your idea of easing a dog into fulltime work. I think it's an
> unconventional, but rather practical and sensible concept. Many guide 
> dogs,
> no matter the age, are not afforded that opportunity. They just go from
> working for an hour or 2 each day to working fulltime and I'm sure that
> contributes to some of the stress on both dog and handler.
> I know of a New Yorker who got a dog. They seemed well-match. This guy was
> constantly on the go, and he received an adorable ball of energy.
> After he got home, I guess he asked way too much of his dog. It seemed 
> that
> he wanted to resume the fast-paced, here there and everywhere lifestyle
> he'd
> had before without taking time and consideration to acclimate his dog to
> his
> home, familiar routes, lifestyle, and routine. The dog stressed out and
> started ignoring cues while working.
> The dog was returned, and fortunately placed with someone else a couple
> months later. But it was a great lesson to this guy to ease his dog into
> such a rigorous work routine.
> Being an energetic dog on the go is fine, but being an energetic dog on 
> the
> go, and working is a different thing, and it wears on a dog.
> And it's a lot to expect so immediately for some dogs.
>
>
> On 2/20/14, Daryl Marie <crazymusician at shaw.ca> wrote:
>> Hi, Julie,
>>
>> That's great!  I think it is an itneresting concept!  *smiles*  Good on
> ya!
>>
>> Daryl
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Julie J. <julielj at neb.rr.com>
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 09:51:12 -0700 (MST)
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>>
>> Yes, you have it exactly right!  Monty is my current guide, who I
>> owner trained.  I also owner trained my previous guides.  I have never
>> attended a program.  My next guide, Jetta, I plan on picking up from
>> the trainer this fall.  when exactly depends on when she is ready,
>> when I can find a driver and the weather.  I'm in Nebraska and the
>> trainer
> is in Wisconsin.
>>
>> Jetta is a Doberman.  I purchased her from a breeder here in Nebraska.
>> I brought her home when she was 8 weeks old.  she stayed with me for
>> about 10 days.  she was an adorable puppy!  She has been with the trainer
> ever since.
>> Meghan Whalen is the trainer.  she is also a member of this list.  She
>> is blind and has owner trained one guide dog, raised several puppies,
>> and has trained several guide/service dogs.
>>
>> Owner training isn't particularly difficult, but it is incredibly time
>> consuming.  It requires a lot of planning and a daily commitment to
>> doing the work.  I'm at a place in my life where I have other things
>> I'd rather be doing, so I went with a trainer this time.  I'm very
>> picky about what I want in a guide and none of the current programs
>> offer exactly what I want.  My list of must have's includes full
>> ownership with no strings attached, my breed of choice, clicker training,
> use of food rewards and  premium foods.
>> I'm also very excited about picking out my own puppy, getting updates
>> throughout the process, deciding what and how I want my dog trained,
>> off leash manners, knowing the puppy raiser/trainer, minimal moves
>> between homes, no kennel environment and the ability to see my puppy if I
> choose.
>>
>> I'm about 6 months into the process.  So far I'm very, extremely pleased.
>> I do miss Jetta and wish I lived closer so I could visit more often,
>> but I have no desire to actually do the training myself.  It's been
>> five years since I trained Monty, but I still vividly remember how much
> work it is.
>> This has been the perfect solution for me.
>>
>> Julie
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Daryl Marie
>> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 10:28 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>>
>> Julie, I've come late to the party... can you explain a little about
>> what you are doing?  Looks like, from what I have read, Monty was an
>> owner-trained guide dog and Jetta is being trained by a trainer
>> somewhere? I am curious.
>>
>> Daryl
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Julie J. <julielj at neb.rr.com>
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 09:17:07 -0700 (MST)
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>>
>> This topic has been very interesting to me.  My current plan is that
>> Jetta will come back to me at about 16 months old.  she will be fully
> trained at
>> that point.   I have always planned to work both Jetta and Monty part
> time,
>> switching back and forth, so Jetta can ease into guiding and Monty can
>> ease into retirement.  We'll see how that works out.
>>
>> Jetta is 8 months old right now and she doesn't have any of the bad
>> manners described of young dogs.  She doesn't resource guard, mouth
>> people, pull on leash or chew up stuff.  Perhaps she hasn't come into
>> true adolescence yet and she'll go crazy doing all sorts of bad stuff,
>> but
> I kind of doubt it.
>> I'm sure she will do some of the testing and asserting her ideas in
>> the next few months.  Honestly though, I am pretty confident that
>> she'll be ready at a young age.  She has never been a crazy, out of
>> control puppy and I don't see why that won't continue.
>>
>> I do realize that no matter how nice her behavior and manners are,
>> there is physical and mental development that doesn't occur until
>> later.  I'll need to be mindful of that and not ask her to do more than
> she can.
>>
>> Perhaps being an owner trainer and now having Jetta privately trained
>> is a different situation from the discussion here.  I don't know.  All
>> of my dogs have eased into the role of guiding.  There has not been an
>> abrupt change from being trained to being totally responsible for
>> guiding.  I have done that transition gradually.  I let the dog guide
>> when he can and train in situations he isn't ready to navigate.  It
>> sounds complicated, but really it doesn't require much thought.  You
>> know what your dog can do and what he can't.
>>
>> Jetta will be different, of course.  Still I'm used to working young
>> dogs in limited situations and letting them get their sea legs, so to
> speak.
>> Perhaps if I lived in a big city or traveled a ton or had other more
>> high intensity lifestyle, then an older dog would be the way to go.  I
>> don't know.
>>
>> Julie
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Raven Tolliver
>> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 9:58 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>>
>> 15 months? Whoa! That is playing with fire.
>> When I made the assembly line reference, I was referring to the way
>> guide dogs themselves are evaluated and trained at certain schools. It
>> is more an assembly line for the dogs than the people. The matching
>> process at any place better be as meticulous as possible. I would
>> expect that from the worst schools.
>> I guess I am very sensitive to the age issue because I deal with
>> adolescent and adult dogs of multiple breeds on a regular basis. I've
>> seen firsthand the difference 6 months can make.
>> I am also passionate about this issue, because I am hearing what I
>> call horror stories about these young dogs being sent home with
>> people. Resource guarding, mouthiness, unnecessary retrieving,
>> horrible leash manners, and flat out refusal to work some days and
>> then eagerness to work others. Schools telling people their dogs will
>> "grow out of it." Well, I sure hope so! It's just too bad they
>> couldn't wait till the dog was well-refined before they handed it
>> over.
>> I'm not sure how new or traditional this is, schools putting out dogs
>> so young, but I know that in other countries, schools don't dream of
>> issuing adolescent dogs, and other assistance dog programs don't
>> either, and for a multitude of good reasons. I think the economy might
>> have something to do with this. Just maybe? The earlier you put dogs
>> out, the less money you have to spend providing for them, especially
>> when you have a large breeding stock, number of litters or gdits on
>> the docket.
>> This is not to bash any school or to undermine the relationship or
>> stability of any of the little ones working out there. However, the
>> differences in age are quiet noticeable, and the consensus is out.
>> Some programs and trainers choose to ignore that, and they are doing a
>> number of dogs and handlers a great disservice. Not everyone, but a
>> great number, for sure.
>>
>> On 2/20/14, Daryl Marie <crazymusician at shaw.ca> wrote:
>>> oh, Jenny is a wiggler!  My husband has nicknamed her "wiggles".  I
>>> don't mind so much if she's out of harness and old friends come and
>>> say hi.  But when she meets new people, I always remind her "manners"
>>> and it seems to calm her down. it's cute!
>>>
>>> Daryl
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Deanna Lewis <DLewis at clovernook.org>
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 07:37:09 -0700 (MST)
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>>>
>>> Pascal was 19 months old when I received him in 2009, and he was one
>>> of the youngest dogs in our class. Most of the other dogs were about
>>> 22 months old.
>>> He has always been very mature, and very well behaved. He didn't want
>>> to lie down on floors or get underneath tables, for the first few
>>> months. And, he seemed to mature at lot once he hit 3 years old. He
>>> has never been one of those wiggly labs, you know the ones who get so
>>> excited their whole body wiggles! LOL One of my co-workers just got a
>>> dog that is only 15 months old. She is very puppy like!
>>> Deanna and Pascal
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sherry
>>> Gomes
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 5:37 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>>>
>>> I think the same could apply to labs. My current guide is a reissue,
>>> so she was three when we trained together. what a difference! I don't
>>> want my next guide to be 18 months old as so many are when
>>> graduating. Two years old is the youngest I'd want and I'd jump to
>>> have a reissue again. Though having said that, Bianca, who was about
>>> 2 when we trained and is 13 now is still young at heart and full of
>>> spirit and a sort of happy puppy mentality.
>>> Olga,
>>> my working guide is 8 and has a very old soul. I'm sure she was
>>> always that way even when she was a baby.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tami
>>> Jarvis
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 12:01 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>>>
>>> Ooh! Research! Poodles are said to mature later, both physically and
>>> mentally, and I did find that with mine. She really came into her own
>>> between 3 and 4. Then again, I've heard of a few people getting
>>> really young poodles that seem to work out well. Okay. Off to read.
>>> /smile/
>>>
>>> Tami
>>>
>>> On 02/19/2014 10:22 AM, "Leye-Shprintse Öberg" wrote:
>>>> BS"D
>>>>
>>>> Raven,
>>>>
>>>> * "... I did some research and found a study on Seeing Eye dogs that
>>> concluded that goldens and GSds are more successful as guide dogs if
>>> they're formal guide training is longer than the standard 4 months.
>>> This is because these dogs mature around age 2, not 1.5 or 1.75
>>> years, which is when many schools seem to be pushing dogs through.
>>> Here's the link to the abstract.
>>> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1558787806000256  ..."
>>>>
>>>> I think this is very interesting. I know that SRF:s
>>>> Ledarhundsverksamhet
>>> (Guide Dogs Sweden) took the decision that the dogs needed to be
>>> between the age of 2 and 3 years when they did the qualifying test
>>> some years ago. The dogs here generally get around seven months of
>>> training by a guide dog trainer. Anyhow, they think this has led to
>>> more stable partnerships; I've any statestics tough.
>>>>
>>>> Kind regards,
>>>> Leye-Shprintse and Hera <3
>>>>
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>>>> om
>>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Raven
>>
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>>
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> --
> Raven
>
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-- 
Raven

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