[nagdu] New Dog and Changing the Nam was RE: Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs

Sat Feb 22 15:46:31 UTC 2014

Sometimes, name confusion is not as profound as dog loss/change trauma 
but rather, mere habit.  My previous to last dog was a guy, my most 
recent being a girl.  Sadly for her, she was told very often (gradually 
decreasing) that she was a good boy.  Indeed, she was even called by my 
previous dog's name, again, reflexive habit.

My dog can lick your dog, and you too!
On 21/02/2014 8:08 PM, Nicole Torcolini wrote:
> Okay, so, JMHO, there are two things going on here. No, I am not really one
> to talk as I am only on my first guide dog, but I think that you kind of
> have to be over the loss of your last dog at least a little before you get
> your next one. Every dog is different. You might ask for the same breed and
> the same gender and the same personality and the same whatever else, but it
> is a different dog, so you can't expect the dog to do the exact same thing
> that the last dog did, especially right away.
> Second, I don't like the idea of changing the name of your guide dog. Things
> are confusing enough for the dogs when they are learning to work with their
> new handlers, so the last thing that they need is a different name. One of
> the few situations  in which I believe that changing the name of the dog is
> warranted is if it isn't really a name or it's a name that, for whatever,
> just does not work (e.g., you cannot pronounce it). In that case, you would
> probably change the name a little later.
> Someone I know received a dog named Power. No offense, but that is not a
> name. The person renamed the dog Howard, which is different but not so
> different that the dog would have a hard time adapting to it. Also, I do not
> know when the person renamed the dog, but I imagine that it was not right
> away.
>
> Nicole and Lexia
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione
> Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 5:26 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>
> Hi Raven.
> Oh, just you wait!  I bet there's not a retrain alive who hasn't called the
> new dog by the old dog's name at least once.
> When one of my classmates at TSE was having trouble with his new dog's name,
> our trainer told him he couldn't go home until he remembered his dog's name!
>
> I was much amused.
> Sometimes I entertain myself by thinking of possible dog names.  I've
> decided the best of them is Um, since, after 6 dogs, Um is the first thing
> that comes to mind as I mentally run through the list to get to the right
> name.
>
> Also, though I try to not rush my new dogs, I do have to go to work and
> commute. I've already taken at least 3 weeks off; taking another is out of
> the question.  I probably wouldn't go out to dinner and a show after work,
> at least for a couple weeks, but I do have things that need to get done.
> Tracy
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Raven Tolliver" <ravend729 at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>
>
> Um, no. It was not all work-related. It was just a guy who likes to go
> out and stay out a lot. Restaurants, stops at numerous stores, subway
> stations and so on. I think it was just too much all at once. He also
> might have been very hard on him expecting his dog to find things and
> show him things the way his previous dog did. Too, this guy retired
> his former guide on Friday and received the replacement the next
> Wednesday, so there were a few things at play there. He would call his
> new boy by his old guide's name. And he would constantly reminisce
> about his former guide. That's understandable, but I think it played a
> role in that dog stressing out.
>
> On 2/20/14, Darla Rogers <djrogers0628 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Dear Julie and Raven,
>>
>> Most schools, if memory serves, do tell you that; sometimes, you
>> have to return to work, but it sounds like the person you refer to here
>> could have added activities gradually.
>> If they were all work-related, I don't know what to say.
>> Darla & Huck
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Raven Tolliver
>> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:50 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>>
>> Julie,
>> I like your idea of easing a dog into fulltime work. I think it's an
>> unconventional, but rather practical and sensible concept. Many guide
>> dogs,
>> no matter the age, are not afforded that opportunity. They just go from
>> working for an hour or 2 each day to working fulltime and I'm sure that
>> contributes to some of the stress on both dog and handler.
>> I know of a New Yorker who got a dog. They seemed well-match. This guy was
>> constantly on the go, and he received an adorable ball of energy.
>> After he got home, I guess he asked way too much of his dog. It seemed
>> that
>> he wanted to resume the fast-paced, here there and everywhere lifestyle
>> he'd
>> had before without taking time and consideration to acclimate his dog to
>> his
>> home, familiar routes, lifestyle, and routine. The dog stressed out and
>> started ignoring cues while working.
>> The dog was returned, and fortunately placed with someone else a couple
>> months later. But it was a great lesson to this guy to ease his dog into
>> such a rigorous work routine.
>> Being an energetic dog on the go is fine, but being an energetic dog on
>> the
>> go, and working is a different thing, and it wears on a dog.
>> And it's a lot to expect so immediately for some dogs.
>>
>>
>> On 2/20/14, Daryl Marie <crazymusician at shaw.ca> wrote:
>>> Hi, Julie,
>>>
>>> That's great!  I think it is an itneresting concept!  *smiles*  Good on
>> ya!
>>> Daryl
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Julie J. <julielj at neb.rr.com>
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 09:51:12 -0700 (MST)
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>>>
>>> Yes, you have it exactly right!  Monty is my current guide, who I
>>> owner trained.  I also owner trained my previous guides.  I have never
>>> attended a program.  My next guide, Jetta, I plan on picking up from
>>> the trainer this fall.  when exactly depends on when she is ready,
>>> when I can find a driver and the weather.  I'm in Nebraska and the
>>> trainer
>> is in Wisconsin.
>>> Jetta is a Doberman.  I purchased her from a breeder here in Nebraska.
>>> I brought her home when she was 8 weeks old.  she stayed with me for
>>> about 10 days.  she was an adorable puppy!  She has been with the trainer
>> ever since.
>>> Meghan Whalen is the trainer.  she is also a member of this list.  She
>>> is blind and has owner trained one guide dog, raised several puppies,
>>> and has trained several guide/service dogs.
>>>
>>> Owner training isn't particularly difficult, but it is incredibly time
>>> consuming.  It requires a lot of planning and a daily commitment to
>>> doing the work.  I'm at a place in my life where I have other things
>>> I'd rather be doing, so I went with a trainer this time.  I'm very
>>> picky about what I want in a guide and none of the current programs
>>> offer exactly what I want.  My list of must have's includes full
>>> ownership with no strings attached, my breed of choice, clicker training,
>> use of food rewards and  premium foods.
>>> I'm also very excited about picking out my own puppy, getting updates
>>> throughout the process, deciding what and how I want my dog trained,
>>> off leash manners, knowing the puppy raiser/trainer, minimal moves
>>> between homes, no kennel environment and the ability to see my puppy if I
>> choose.
>>> I'm about 6 months into the process.  So far I'm very, extremely pleased.
>>> I do miss Jetta and wish I lived closer so I could visit more often,
>>> but I have no desire to actually do the training myself.  It's been
>>> five years since I trained Monty, but I still vividly remember how much
>> work it is.
>>> This has been the perfect solution for me.
>>>
>>> Julie
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Daryl Marie
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 10:28 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>>>
>>> Julie, I've come late to the party... can you explain a little about
>>> what you are doing?  Looks like, from what I have read, Monty was an
>>> owner-trained guide dog and Jetta is being trained by a trainer
>>> somewhere? I am curious.
>>>
>>> Daryl
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Julie J. <julielj at neb.rr.com>
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 09:17:07 -0700 (MST)
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>>>
>>> This topic has been very interesting to me.  My current plan is that
>>> Jetta will come back to me at about 16 months old.  she will be fully
>> trained at
>>> that point.   I have always planned to work both Jetta and Monty part
>> time,
>>> switching back and forth, so Jetta can ease into guiding and Monty can
>>> ease into retirement.  We'll see how that works out.
>>>
>>> Jetta is 8 months old right now and she doesn't have any of the bad
>>> manners described of young dogs.  She doesn't resource guard, mouth
>>> people, pull on leash or chew up stuff.  Perhaps she hasn't come into
>>> true adolescence yet and she'll go crazy doing all sorts of bad stuff,
>>> but
>> I kind of doubt it.
>>> I'm sure she will do some of the testing and asserting her ideas in
>>> the next few months.  Honestly though, I am pretty confident that
>>> she'll be ready at a young age.  She has never been a crazy, out of
>>> control puppy and I don't see why that won't continue.
>>>
>>> I do realize that no matter how nice her behavior and manners are,
>>> there is physical and mental development that doesn't occur until
>>> later.  I'll need to be mindful of that and not ask her to do more than
>> she can.
>>> Perhaps being an owner trainer and now having Jetta privately trained
>>> is a different situation from the discussion here.  I don't know.  All
>>> of my dogs have eased into the role of guiding.  There has not been an
>>> abrupt change from being trained to being totally responsible for
>>> guiding.  I have done that transition gradually.  I let the dog guide
>>> when he can and train in situations he isn't ready to navigate.  It
>>> sounds complicated, but really it doesn't require much thought.  You
>>> know what your dog can do and what he can't.
>>>
>>> Jetta will be different, of course.  Still I'm used to working young
>>> dogs in limited situations and letting them get their sea legs, so to
>> speak.
>>> Perhaps if I lived in a big city or traveled a ton or had other more
>>> high intensity lifestyle, then an older dog would be the way to go.  I
>>> don't know.
>>>
>>> Julie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Raven Tolliver
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 9:58 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>>>
>>> 15 months? Whoa! That is playing with fire.
>>> When I made the assembly line reference, I was referring to the way
>>> guide dogs themselves are evaluated and trained at certain schools. It
>>> is more an assembly line for the dogs than the people. The matching
>>> process at any place better be as meticulous as possible. I would
>>> expect that from the worst schools.
>>> I guess I am very sensitive to the age issue because I deal with
>>> adolescent and adult dogs of multiple breeds on a regular basis. I've
>>> seen firsthand the difference 6 months can make.
>>> I am also passionate about this issue, because I am hearing what I
>>> call horror stories about these young dogs being sent home with
>>> people. Resource guarding, mouthiness, unnecessary retrieving,
>>> horrible leash manners, and flat out refusal to work some days and
>>> then eagerness to work others. Schools telling people their dogs will
>>> "grow out of it." Well, I sure hope so! It's just too bad they
>>> couldn't wait till the dog was well-refined before they handed it
>>> over.
>>> I'm not sure how new or traditional this is, schools putting out dogs
>>> so young, but I know that in other countries, schools don't dream of
>>> issuing adolescent dogs, and other assistance dog programs don't
>>> either, and for a multitude of good reasons. I think the economy might
>>> have something to do with this. Just maybe? The earlier you put dogs
>>> out, the less money you have to spend providing for them, especially
>>> when you have a large breeding stock, number of litters or gdits on
>>> the docket.
>>> This is not to bash any school or to undermine the relationship or
>>> stability of any of the little ones working out there. However, the
>>> differences in age are quiet noticeable, and the consensus is out.
>>> Some programs and trainers choose to ignore that, and they are doing a
>>> number of dogs and handlers a great disservice. Not everyone, but a
>>> great number, for sure.
>>>
>>> On 2/20/14, Daryl Marie <crazymusician at shaw.ca> wrote:
>>>> oh, Jenny is a wiggler!  My husband has nicknamed her "wiggles".  I
>>>> don't mind so much if she's out of harness and old friends come and
>>>> say hi.  But when she meets new people, I always remind her "manners"
>>>> and it seems to calm her down. it's cute!
>>>>
>>>> Daryl
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: Deanna Lewis <DLewis at clovernook.org>
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 07:37:09 -0700 (MST)
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>>>>
>>>> Pascal was 19 months old when I received him in 2009, and he was one
>>>> of the youngest dogs in our class. Most of the other dogs were about
>>>> 22 months old.
>>>> He has always been very mature, and very well behaved. He didn't want
>>>> to lie down on floors or get underneath tables, for the first few
>>>> months. And, he seemed to mature at lot once he hit 3 years old. He
>>>> has never been one of those wiggly labs, you know the ones who get so
>>>> excited their whole body wiggles! LOL One of my co-workers just got a
>>>> dog that is only 15 months old. She is very puppy like!
>>>> Deanna and Pascal
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sherry
>>>> Gomes
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 5:37 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>>>>
>>>> I think the same could apply to labs. My current guide is a reissue,
>>>> so she was three when we trained together. what a difference! I don't
>>>> want my next guide to be 18 months old as so many are when
>>>> graduating. Two years old is the youngest I'd want and I'd jump to
>>>> have a reissue again. Though having said that, Bianca, who was about
>>>> 2 when we trained and is 13 now is still young at heart and full of
>>>> spirit and a sort of happy puppy mentality.
>>>> Olga,
>>>> my working guide is 8 and has a very old soul. I'm sure she was
>>>> always that way even when she was a baby.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tami
>>>> Jarvis
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 12:01 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>>>>
>>>> Ooh! Research! Poodles are said to mature later, both physically and
>>>> mentally, and I did find that with mine. She really came into her own
>>>> between 3 and 4. Then again, I've heard of a few people getting
>>>> really young poodles that seem to work out well. Okay. Off to read.
>>>> /smile/
>>>>
>>>> Tami
>>>>
>>>> On 02/19/2014 10:22 AM, "Leye-Shprintse Öberg" wrote:
>>>>> BS"D
>>>>>
>>>>> Raven,
>>>>>
>>>>> * "... I did some research and found a study on Seeing Eye dogs that
>>>> concluded that goldens and GSds are more successful as guide dogs if
>>>> they're formal guide training is longer than the standard 4 months.
>>>> This is because these dogs mature around age 2, not 1.5 or 1.75
>>>> years, which is when many schools seem to be pushing dogs through.
>>>> Here's the link to the abstract.
>>>> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1558787806000256  ..."
>>>>> I think this is very interesting. I know that SRF:s
>>>>> Ledarhundsverksamhet
>>>> (Guide Dogs Sweden) took the decision that the dogs needed to be
>>>> between the age of 2 and 3 years when they did the qualifying test
>>>> some years ago. The dogs here generally get around seven months of
>>>> training by a guide dog trainer. Anyhow, they think this has led to
>>>> more stable partnerships; I've any statestics tough.
>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>> Leye-Shprintse and Hera <3
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> om
>>>>>
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>>>
>>> --
>>> Raven
>>>
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>>>
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>>
>> --
>> Raven
>>
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