[nagdu] Clicker Training; was: Miniature Guide Horses
Nicole Torcolini
ntorcolini at wavecable.com
Mon Feb 24 05:20:21 UTC 2014
LOL, I think that I need to work on the polite treat taking part. Lexia
knows what clicker training is all too well, and gets over excited about it.
Every now and then, she gets so excited about the treat that she misses
whatever I am trying to teach her.
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ann Edie
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2014 8:07 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Clicker Training; was: Miniature Guide Horses
Hi, Sheila,
Raven gave you a great answer to your questions, so I'll just add a couple
of thoughts below:
Yes, you can do clicker training without sight. The books and training
materials talk a lot about having the dog make eye contact with the handler.
But as long as you understand that this is just the way sighted people get
the dog's attention, and that you can substitute having the dog touch your
hand with its nose or use some other tactile way of achieving the same
attention goal, there's no issue at all with using clicker training as a
blind person. Since guide dogs work right at our sides and not at a
distance from us, it is easy to check and see what the dog is doing at any
given time, you just reach down and touch him/her. And if you need to work
at a distance, such as for doing long stays or retrieving, you can attach a
bell to the dog or to objects so as to know when they move and where they
are.
You can use clicker training with any age dog. The first thing you want to
teach is the connection between the clicking sound and the reward. Then the
next thing you want to teach is the connection between a desired behavior
and the click/treat. Then you also want to teach polite treat-taking, so
that the dog does not think he/she gets treats by sticking his/her nose in
your pocket or by mugging you for food. You want the dog to understand that
it can get you to click and give it a reward by doing the behaviors that you
have shown him/her are desirable to you. Once the dog understands these
basic rules of the game, you will be off and running!
Best,
Ann
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of sheila
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2014 6:31 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Clicker Training; was: Miniature Guide Horses
ann thank you for the post. I don't know much about clicker training but I
think if I got familiar with it I would love it. I don't really like leash
corrections at all and I would use another method if I knew how to do it
correctly. can you use it with no vision at all? and is it to late to use
with a foyear old dog?
On 2/23/2014 2:28 AM, Ann Edie wrote:
> Hi, Daryl,
>
> Yes, people frequently want to pet Panda or take her picture. And
> they often want me to let their small children pet her or have their
> picture taken with her. They also ask lots of questions about her. I
> try to answer questions if I have time and to educate a bit on
> etiquette with regard to all service animals. Panda is not crazy
> about having strangers stick their hands in her face, so I direct the
> petters to her neck and shoulder if I can. She mostly wants to go on
> with her work, but she will target my hand with her nose and wait
> patiently until I extricate us from the little or big hands. One
> thing that is different with a miniature horse guide is that often
> when we enter a store, restaurant, or other public place for the first
> time, the staff and management come over and ask if they can take a
> photo of us to put up on their wall, sometimes alongside the pictures
> of famous celebrities who have visited the business, to show everyone
> that it is true that they had a tiny horse in their place. The
> funniest thing is that when we're just walking down the street, people
> will stick their heads out of their car windows and yell, "That's a
> big dog!" or "That's not a dog!" or "Look at the donkey!" or "There's
> a
cow!" or any number of other ridiculous things.
>
> You asked about clicker training--
> Clicker training is a training method which relies on positive
> reinforcement--what most of us would call rewards--to motivate a
> learner to change his behavior or learn something new. And it uses a
> marker signal, usually a mechanical clicking sound or a tongue click,
> to mark the exact behavior which is going to be rewarded. This lets
> the learner know just which of the many things she has done in the
> recent past has earned the reward, and gives us time to reach into our
> pocket to get a tiny bit of food that the learner finds valuable
> enough to change her behavior in order to get, and to deliver that
> reward to the learner. The reward or reinforcer does not have to be a
> food treat, but it must be something that the trainer can deliver in a
> short time and in a variety of settings and circumstances, and it must
> be something that the learner finds desirable enough to want to change
> her behavior in order to earn. Since most dogs, and horses, are
> highly motivated by certain foods, treats are the primary type of
reinforcers used by clicker trainers.
>
> Quite a few of the guide dog schools in the U.S. now use clicker
> training as part of their training methodology and teach a bit about
> it to their students during the team training process. For many
> programs, clicker training is seen as just one tool among many in the
> toolbox, to be brought out to teach a specific task or solve a
> particular
problem with a dog.
> Guide Dogs for the Blind in California and Oregon has gone the
> farthest in adopting clicker training as the primary training method
> used throughout the process of raising and training their dogs. I
> believe it is now used by all their puppy raisers as well as the
professional guide dog trainers at GDB.
> I believe they offer classes in clicker training to their students in
> class, but I don't know if they expect all students to use this method
> for routine handling of their dogs over the length of the partnership.
> I believe all schools in the U.S. are still teaching the use of
> various types of "correction", as well as the use of praise and
> petting, to their students, as the routine way of working with their
> dogs and maintaining the working relationship between the partners.
>
> It has been my personal experience that when we use a
> positive-reinforcement-based training method with our animal partners
> and eliminate "correction" (which is another name for "punishment")
> from our training and working relationships, a wonderful
> transformation occurs in those relationships. The attitudes of both
> the human and the animal partner are transformed. The animal's stress
> level goes down because she has a much clearer idea about just what
> the human partner wants her to do and she knows exactly how to earn
> rewards. She now sees each walk and interaction with the handler as
> an opportunity to perform well-understood behaviors and earn rewards
> which are valuable to her. The handler is less stressed because she
> is no longer worried about being the policeman of her dog's behavior.
> She is focused on teaching the dog what she wants her to do, rather
> than
being focused on preventing the dog from doing what she doesn't want her to
do.
> The new understanding of the handler is that if the dog doesn't
> perform a certain behavior which is desirable to the handler, then it
> is because the handler has not taught that behavior to the animal
> sufficiently or not in circumstances with the level of distraction
> that the animal is being presented with. This wipes away the beliefs
> that the dog is "testing" the handler or that the dog is being
> stubborn or wants to be the dominant partner. Clicker training and
> clicker handling makes each walk with my guide a joy for both of us,
> and once most people have made the switch from correction-based
> training to positive-reinforcement-based training and handling, they
> do
not want to go back.
>
> If you want to learn more about clicker training, there are many sites
> on the Internet to explore. I suggest starting with Karen Pryor's
> site and book, since she was the one who popularized the method and
> gave
it its name.
> Her book, DON'T SHOOT THE DOG, is a classic and a great introduction
> to the theory and practice of training in general, and clicker
> training in particular.
>
> I hope that gives you the information you wanted, and perhaps peaks
> your curiosity about clicker training.
>
> Best,
> Ann
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Daryl Marie
> Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 8:44 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Miniature Guide Horses WAS Cincinnati Family with
> miniature horse service animal, sues city.
>
> Ann,
>
> Thank you for that wonderfully descriptive and thorough list of
> reasons why you have a horse. That's so awesome! Do people ask to
> pet your horse because she's so cute? I had that yesterday in Wal-mart
with Jenny... UGH!
>
> Also, I hear about Clicker training, but am not familiar with the term.
> What is that?
>
> Daryl
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ann Edie <annedie at nycap.rr.com>
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Fri, 21 Feb 2014 23:47:04 -0700 (MST)
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Miniature Guide Horses WAS Cincinnati Family with
> miniature horse service animal, sues city.
>
> Hi, Daryl and Everyone,
>
> You asked how or why I switched from using guide dogs to working with
> a miniature horse guide. Well, my decision to work with a miniature
> horse guide was prompted by many experiences and philosophical factors.
>
> First of all, perhaps, was my experience with guide dogs. After
> working for
> 9 years with my first, wonderful chocolate Labrador guide dog, I
> experienced
> 2 heart-breaking attempted partnerships with one male and one female
> German shepherd guide. I decided that, even in the case of the very
> successful guide dog, the working lifespan of dogs is painfully short,
> and the disruption during the period of the decline of the working
> guide, the loss of that relationship, the time of transition to a new
> dog guide, and the period of adjustment and team building with the new
> dog guide, were just too stressful for me physically, emotionally and
> in terms of time commitment for me to want to repeat the process every
> few years. And it is even harder if you throw in the occasional
> mismatch or match with a dog who decides he/she really isn't prepared
> to
work full time as a guide.
>
> Second, I am, and have always been, a horse lover. At the time I got
> my miniature horse, I already owned 3 riding horses and was very
> involved in their care and training. I knew that horses are
> intelligent enough to do guide work and that many of them have the
> temperament to do the work. I also knew that horses do look upon the
> humans with whom they have close relationships as members of their
> bands (families), and do take on the roles of companion and
> guide/protector as needed. My own Arabian horse, Magnat, acted as my
> guide both when I was riding him and when I was walking with him. I
> had trained him to stop at changes of footing and elevation and before
> going through doorways or gateways so that I could orient myself and
> make sure the passage was clear. He was also a wonderful retriever
> who would not only happily pick up grooming tools that regularly flew
> out of my hand while I was vigorously brushing him, but would also
> tidy up the arena by bringing me sundry objects which others had
> dropped , like whips, hats, tissues, and little traffic cones. And
> miniature horses have an average lifespan of 30-40 years or more,
> compared with the 10-15 year lifespan of dogs, which means you can
> expect an amazing, long-lasting and continuously deepening
> relationship with one very special animal partner. Around the year
> 2000 I began hearing reports of the Guide Horse Foundation's training
> of the first miniature horses as guides for blind people, and I was
intrigued. I had not known up to that time, that there were horses small
enough to serve as guides.
>
> Third, through my interests in dogs and horses and their training
> (obedience for dogs as well as guide work, and dressage riding and
> general management for horses) I had become convinced that I wanted a
> guide animal trained with methods which relied on positive
> reinforcement rather than what is called "correction" in the guide dog
> world. By the year 2000, methods which were based in behavioral
> science and which relied on positive reinforcement were becoming the
> norm in training dogs as well as most other species of animals for all
types of management, performance, and companionship/obedience tasks.
> However, guide dog training programs were largely entrenched in the
> traditional methods which relied on correction both during the dogs'
> training and in the relationship between the dog and handler after
> placement. I had become accustomed to working with my horses and dogs
> in the more positive way, and I no longer wanted to go back to the
> punishment-based methods of the guide dog programs.
>
> Fourth, I was fortunate to be working and sharing a barn with
> Alexandra Kurland, who is the foremost advocate of positive training
> methods, specifically, clicker training, in the horse world. So when
> I expressed to Alex my interest in perhaps working with a miniature
> horse guide instead of a successor guide dog, she responded with a
> proposal that we acquire and train a miniature horse to be my guide,
> and that we use clicker training exclusively both to train and to
> handle the guide horse, to which I enthusiastically agreed.
>
> So, in the summer of 2001, we started searching the internet for a
> suitable young miniature horse. We found a good prospect in Florida,
> flew down to meet her, and knew immediately that she would be our
> little
clicker guide.
> Panda came to live with Alex in September, 2001, in the days just
> after 9-11 when we were all in a shocked daze, wondering what the
> world would be like in the next months and years. She definitely
> proved to be a bright star in a time of darkness and doubt. Panda was
> just 8 months old when she started her training, which was a
> combination of both basic socialization and guide training, and which
> lasted about 18 months. She was actually ready to go to work
> full-time earlier, but we didn't want to have her begin her working
> life until she was over two years old. Panda came to live with me and
> became my full-time guide in the summer of 2003, and she has been the
> most wonderful, consistent, confident, and intelligent guide that
> anyone could hope for. She just celebrated her 13th birthday, and we
> have been working together for ten and a half years, with the prospect
> of
decades of happy partnership ahead of us.
>
> In answer to your question about how guide horses work-- They do all
> of the same guide tasks as guide dogs do, although sometimes they do
> it a bit differently than the dogs. For example, instead of going
> under a table or chair in a restaurant or on the bus, the guide horse
> stands beside my chair or between the bus seats. The horses don't sit
> as dogs do, but they either stand or lie down instead. They do all
> the usual guide tasks such as stopping at curbs and stairs, going
> around obstacles, changing speed for uneven footing or for ice, mud,
> water, etc., looking out for overhead obstacles, turning left and
> right on cue, monitoring moving vehicles at driveways and street
> crossings and exercising intelligent disobedience when necessary, and
> finding specific places in the environment, such as doors to go inside
> or outside, elevators, stairs, checkout counters, pedestrian signal
> buttons, home, etc. And yes, they are housetrained and relieve on
> leash
and on cue, just as the dogs do.
>
> The organization I mentioned earlier, the Guide Horse Foundation,
> trained the first working guide horse team, Dan Shaw and Cuddles, in
> the spring of 2001. That organization trained a few more teams in the
> next couple of years. But as far as I can tell, they haven't been
> active
in recent years.
> All of the active teams that I am aware of, except for Dan Shaw and
> Cuddles, have miniature horses which were privately trained or owner
trained.
>
> I hope that answers some of your questions.
>
> Best,
> Ann
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Daryl Marie
> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 12:47 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: [nagdu] Miniature Guide Horses WAS Cincinnati Family with
> miniature horse service animal, sues city.
>
> Hi, Ann,
>
> May I ask what prompted the change from guide dogs to guide horse?
> Who trains a guide horse? Does it guide similar to a dog? I am very
curious!
>
> Daryl
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ann Edie <annedie at nycap.rr.com>
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 13:34:56 -0700 (MST)
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Cincinnati Family with miniature horse service
> animal, sues city.
>
> Hi,
>
> FYI, I use the same size plastic bags for picking up after my
> miniature horse guide as I did for picking up after my dog guides.
>
> Also, I keep my miniature horse guide at my property, a
> privately-owned house in the suburbs with a lot not too much bigger
> than the one mentioned in the article. The town officials in my town
> as well as the animal control officer and the code enforcement people
> are all aware of the presence of my miniature horse guide, and none
> has given me a hassle about it. My area is zoned residential and does
> not permit what they call livestock. (I know this because the
> neighbors and town officials certainly did react quickly when my
> daughter attempted to keep 4 baby chickens she rescued from her 8th
> grade biology class in a pen in our backyard. That requires a zoning
> variance and the agreement of the neighbors.)
>
> Anyway, I'm not here to support the keeping of any or all of the other
> animals, but my miniature horse at least is considerably quieter than
> the dogs that live on either side of my property, both of which bark
> incessantly at anyone who moves in their vicinity. And as for smell,
> I pick up after my horse 4-6 times a day and there is never a pile
> left in the yard, whereas the neighbors' dogs are allowed to leave
> piles in their yards for many days before the waste is picked up, if
> ever. And--this may be a matter of opinion--but horse manure is
> nowhere near as bad smelling or objectionable to pick up as is dog
droppings.
>
> My miniature horse is a trained service animal and I have the same
> right to keep her in my home and to be accompanied by her in all
> places of public accommodation as I would if she were a dog guide. I
> believe the family in this article may not be claiming that the horse
> is a trained service animal for use in public, but rather as a
> medically prescribed support animal which can be kept in the home
> under the Fair Housing Act. I have only seen this law used in the
> case of public housing or rental properties, so don't know if that law
> applies to privately owned homes and to town zoning codes. But I have
> heard of a couple of court cases where the lawyers brought into court
> a miniature horse and a large, rambunctious mastiff or great Dane for
> the court to compare as to which might be more noisy, smelly, and
disruptive to neighborhood tranquility. Which do you think would come out
on top?
>
> Best,
> Ann
>
>
>
>
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