[nagdu] Miniature Guide Horses WAS Cincinnati Family with miniature horse service animal, sues city.

Tue Feb 25 01:57:02 UTC 2014

Hi, Darla,

Neither Alex nor I have any plans to open a guide horse training program.
But there is another guide horse user who has trained a couple of guide
horses for other people and is thinking of starting some sort of
organization to help people who want to be partnered with a guide horse
achieve their goal.  That person's name is Mona Ramouni, and I believe she
has a blog called "theeyesofmona".  I think she has been on some of these
lists in the past, but I don't remember which ones.

Best,
Ann

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darla Rogers
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2014 7:41 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Miniature Guide Horses WAS Cincinnati Family with
miniature horse service animal, sues city.

Dear Ann,

	I think your post was fantastic; you answered my questions--and
others--very clearly. now if I could just see her work.
	I love horses but don't know nearly as much about them as you do,
but I have read a lot of how you and Alex trained her; maybe you'll  open a
guide horse school some day?
Darla & handsome Huck

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ann Edie
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2014 9:14 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Miniature Guide Horses WAS Cincinnati Family with
miniature horse service animal, sues city.

Hi, Darla and Everyone,

Panda does not wear any shoes on her feet.  Miniature horses in general do
not wear the metal type of horseshoes that larger horses wear, because their
hoof walls are not thick enough to support the nails that hold shoes on the
big horses.  But even many full-sized horses (like my own two riding horses)
go barefoot, if the footing they work on is not too wearing on their hooves.
Some of the miniature guide horses do wear little sneakers made for human
children or rubber-soled shoes made for horses, but I haven't felt the need
very often to put shoes on Panda.  She has very good balance and doesn't
generally slip on normal walking surfaces.  She is very steady on ice, tile,
and other surfaces which can sometimes be slippery.  And road salt, ice, and
even hot pavement do not seem to be a problem for horses' hooves the way
they are for dogs' paws.  Panda is sometimes reluctant to walk on wet wooden
stairs.  I'm not sure whether this is for her own safety or that she thinks
they are dangerous for me to walk on.  But I have thought of trying the Pawz
type of foot coverings on her to see if they give her more confidence on
this type of surface.  I think the little sneakers that were first put on
miniature horse guides by the Guide Horse Foundation were used to reassure
the public that the miniature horse's hooves would not damage their floors,
as well as to give the horses more traction on slippery surfaces.  But the
truth is that, because of the larger surface area of the horses' hooves in
contact with the floor, which distributes the weight of the animal over a
larger area, horses' hooves have less impact on floors than do humans who
are wearing skinny-heeled shoes or dogs with nails that are long enough to
touch the floor when they walk.  Also, if you feel the edges of a miniature
horse's hooves, you will find that they are quite nicely rounded and do not
have sharp edges.

Panda's harness is almost exactly the same style as harnesses from some of
the largest guide dog programs.  Her harness is leather, and was made by
Dave Shabbot, who makes harnesses for many of the guide dog programs.
Actually, it is sort of a combination of a Seeing Eye harness and a Fidelco
harness, because I liked some features of each, and since Dave was custom
making the harness for me, I could choose from a wide variety of features,
fittings, colors, etc.  The one design difference between Panda's harness
and a guide dog harness is in the back strap.  Instead of going straight
across the animal's back, Panda's back strap has a U shape in its middle to
go around her withers (with the bottom of the U toward her tail.)  This is
to prevent pressure from the weight of the harness being concentrated on the
withers, the bony top of the shoulders of the horse, which could cause
rubbing and sores.  I have thought of possibly getting a nylon harness made
for her, but haven't done that yet.  I use an ergonomic handle on the
harness, which allows my hand to rest at a more natural angle than does a
traditional straight handle.  Panda wears a regular horse halter on her head
when she is working, to which I clip a (Fidelco style) guide dog leash by
means of a ring under her chin.

As to the question of whether there are any circumstances in which I would
not think a guide horse is a suitable choice of mobility aide, actually, I
will turn that around and say that I think a person has to have really good
reasons to want to partner with a miniature horse guide to make it worth the
additional complications and pioneering aspects of being a trailblazer.  I
think for most people, dog guides work out just fine and provide excellent
mobility.  And these days, people in general know a lot more about how to
live with dogs than they do about how to live and work with horses.  And I'm
hoping that as more guide dog schools give positive training methods a
larger place in their training programs both with the dogs and with the
human students, That the success rates for new teams and the working
longevity of teams will increase due to decreased stress on both team
members.  Of course, there will still be the large difference in the
lifespans of dogs and horses, which makes the miniature horse an attractive
option for some of us.  And there will be some people who simply love horses
and prefer to work with a horse rather than with a dog as a mobility
partner, just as there are some who choose a dog guide over the use of the
white cane, even though the cane is the most basic and probably most
convenient mobility aide.  And there will be some people who have other
reasons, such as religious or cultural reasons, allergies, or fears/phobias,
for choosing a horse over a dog guide.

The main disadvantages of the miniature horse compared with the dog as a
guide animal are that the miniature horse is in general larger and takes up
more space, and the difference of the horse's digestive system which
requires more frequent feeding and, therefore, more frequent relieving than
is needed for a dog.  There are places where I won't take my guide horse
because of the space constraints.  Most of these are not strictly places of
public accommodation in the strictest sense of the term, because almost all
such places have to be accessible to wheelchair users, and if there is
enough space for a person using a wheelchair, then there is enough space for
Panda and me.  But some of the classrooms I work in are very crowded indeed
with people, furniture, and equipment, so much so that it is a wonder they
can pass fire safety inspections.  I always say that there is hardly enough
space in some of these rooms for me to put down my bag of teaching
materials, let alone enough space to put a guide animal, regardless of
species.  It would be different if I had my own classroom where I could
arrange things as needed to accommodate my guide.  But this is one of the
challenges of working in an itinerant model.  I have had no problems finding
adequate, out-of-the-way places to put my guide horse on city buses, trains,
subway cars, or paratransit vehicles, but I have wondered where I might put
her on an intercity bus--last time I looked, the Grayhound and Trailways
buses around here were not wheelchair accessible either.  I don't know what
their obligations are under the ADA, if any.  Taxis are another issue; some
of them have very cramped back seats with very little floor space, and I
wouldn't want my guide animal, whether a dog or a mini horse, to be up on
the seat of the taxi.  So I might have to arrange for a taxi which is a
minivan or the like.  Since I don't have to take taxis often, this hasn't
been a problem for me.  My family transportation is a minivan, and Panda
hops in and out of it and rides comfortably in it regularly, so that isn't
an issue for us.

With regard to the horse's digestive system, horses are grazers, and unlike
predators which eat only once in a while when they have had a successful
hunt, grazers eat almost constantly for many hours of the day, nibbling and
walking.  Their systems are designed for continuous processing of food, and
problems such as ulcers and collick can occur if they don't get fed on a
regular, frequent schedule.  Feeding a mini horse is not a problem, however,
since their feed is not smelly or very messy.  They can be fed a few feed
pellets or a couple of soaked hay cubes once in a while without much fuss.
Since what goes in must also come out, horses need to relieve themselves
more often than do dogs.  So it takes some planning and attention on the
part of the handler to make sure that the guide horse's needs are met within
a normal busy day.  If you're the type of person who loses herself in her
work for many hours at a time, or if you're stuck in meetings or conferences
from which not even the human participants can escape for a bathroom break,
then it is going to be a bit of a challenge to make sure that the guide
horse gets a chance to relieve on her schedule, not yours.  Long airplane
flights and overnight stays in hotels are other situations which take a bit
of forethought and attention to handle, but that is not to say that they
cannot be handled.  Relieving harnesses permit us to relieve the animal in
places that are not necessarily designated as relief areas but which are
closer or more conveniently located, or when we can't get to the great
outdoors.  These harnesses also make clean up much easier even when you do
relieve the animal outdoors and on its preferred surface.  At home, of
course, you can arrange things so that the miniature horse can have access
to the outdoors or to its relief area either at will, such as through a
"doggie door" or by indicating its need to go out and being let out or taken
out to a designated spot to relieve.

I'm often asked whether guide horses can live and work in cities or if they
are best suited for life in rural areas and suburbs.  While I personally
would not want to try keeping my miniature horse guide in a city highrise
apartment, I think there are other options within most cities which could
work well for guide horse teams.  For example, apartments or town homes with
a deck, garden, or yard could be adapted easily for this purpose.  If
sighted residents have parking spaces close to their apartments, then a
small shed could be put in a resident's parking space for the miniature
horse to stay in when it is not with its human partner.  Or a small shed and
yard could be constructed in the backyard of the building.  As for working
in the city, Panda, at least, loves working in the city and is not at all
worried or spooked by all the bustle and noise.  I think she likes the
challenge and adventure of it.  And maybe she enjoys moving along with the
crowds of people as horses move with their bands or large herds.

Sorry for the long rambling message.  I hope it answered some of your
questions as well as the questions of other list members.  I would love to
introduce you to Panda and let you see how she works and show you what a
delightful personality she has.  I'm glad you have such a great new partner
in Huck, and may you enjoy many years of happy travels together.

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darla Rogers
Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 2:21 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Miniature Guide Horses WAS Cincinnati Family with
miniature horse service animal, sues city.

Dear Ann,
	Two questions I am not sure I have ever seen answers for, though I'm
sure you have.
	First, what does Panda wear on her feet?  The ones I have heard
about seem to wear human shoes, but I know the hoof is shaped differently?
	Second, under what circumstances, all else being equal, do you
believe might not be suitable for a miniature horse guide?
	Oops; I have another one, what does her harness look like?
	Boy; i  wish I live closer; I'd love to see the two of you working
together.
	I would be lying if I said I didn't wish our dog relationships
lasted longer, especially when you have such a fantastic dog, as I do now.
	Thank you very much for being so open and explaining things so well.
Darla & Huggable Huck

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ann Edie
Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 12:47 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Miniature Guide Horses WAS Cincinnati Family with
miniature horse service animal, sues city.

Hi, Daryl and Everyone,

You asked how or why I switched from using guide dogs to working with a
miniature horse guide.  Well, my decision to work with a miniature horse
guide was prompted by many experiences and philosophical factors.

First of all, perhaps, was my experience with guide dogs.  After working for
9 years with my first, wonderful chocolate Labrador guide dog, I experienced
2 heart-breaking attempted partnerships with one male and one female German
shepherd guide.  I decided that, even in the case of the very successful
guide dog, the working lifespan of dogs is painfully short, and the
disruption during the period of the decline of the working guide, the loss
of that relationship, the time of transition to a new dog guide, and the
period of adjustment and team building with the new dog guide, were just too
stressful for me physically, emotionally and in terms of time commitment for
me to want to repeat the process every few years.  And it is even harder if
you throw in the occasional mismatch or match with a dog who decides he/she
really isn't prepared to work full time as a guide.

Second, I am, and have always been, a horse lover.  At the time I got my
miniature horse, I already owned 3 riding horses and was very involved in
their care and training.  I knew that horses are intelligent enough to do
guide work and that many of them have the temperament to do the work.  I
also knew that horses do look upon the humans with whom they have close
relationships as members of their bands (families), and do take on the roles
of companion and guide/protector as needed.  My own Arabian horse, Magnat,
acted as my guide both when I was riding him and when I was walking with
him.  I had trained him to stop at changes of footing and elevation and
before going through doorways or gateways so that I could orient myself and
make sure the passage was clear.  He was also a wonderful retriever who
would not only happily pick up grooming tools that regularly flew out of my
hand while I was vigorously brushing him, but would also tidy up the arena
by bringing me sundry objects which others had dropped , like whips, hats,
tissues, and little traffic cones.  And miniature horses have an average
lifespan of 30-40 years or more, compared with the 10-15 year lifespan of
dogs, which means you can expect an amazing, long-lasting and continuously
deepening relationship with one very special animal partner.  Around the
year 2000 I began hearing reports of the Guide Horse Foundation's training
of the first miniature horses as guides for blind people, and I was
intrigued.  I had not known up to that time, that there were horses small
enough to serve as guides.

Third, through my interests in dogs and horses and their training (obedience
for dogs as well as guide work, and dressage riding and general management
for horses) I had become convinced that I wanted a guide animal trained with
methods which relied on positive reinforcement rather than what is called
"correction" in the guide dog world.  By the year 2000, methods which were
based in behavioral science and which relied on positive reinforcement were
becoming the norm in training dogs as well as most other species of animals
for all types of management, performance, and companionship/obedience tasks.
However, guide dog training programs were largely entrenched in the
traditional methods which relied on correction both during the dogs'
training and in the relationship between the dog and handler after
placement.  I had become accustomed to working with my horses and dogs in
the more positive way, and I no longer wanted to go back to the
punishment-based methods of the guide dog programs.

Fourth, I was fortunate to be working and sharing a barn with Alexandra
Kurland, who is the foremost advocate of positive training methods,
specifically, clicker training, in the horse world.  So when I expressed to
Alex my interest in perhaps working with a miniature horse guide instead of
a successor guide dog, she responded with a proposal that we acquire and
train a miniature horse to be my guide, and that we use clicker training
exclusively both to train and to handle the guide horse, to which I
enthusiastically agreed.

So, in the summer of 2001, we started searching the internet for a suitable
young miniature horse.  We found a good prospect in Florida, flew down to
meet her, and knew immediately that she would be our little clicker guide.
Panda came to live with Alex in September, 2001, in the days just after 9-11
when we were all in a shocked daze, wondering what the world would be like
in the next months and years.  She definitely proved to be a bright star in
a time of darkness and doubt.  Panda was just 8 months old when she started
her training, which was a combination of both basic socialization and guide
training, and which lasted about 18 months.  She was actually ready to go to
work full-time earlier, but we didn't want to have her begin her working
life until she was over two years old.  Panda came to live with me and
became my full-time guide in the summer of 2003, and she has been the most
wonderful, consistent, confident, and intelligent guide that anyone could
hope for.  She just celebrated her 13th birthday, and we have been working
together for ten and a half years, with the prospect of decades of happy
partnership ahead of us.

In answer to your question about how guide horses work-- They do all of the
same guide tasks as guide dogs do, although sometimes they do it a bit
differently than the dogs.  For example, instead of going under a table or
chair in a restaurant or on the bus, the guide horse stands beside my chair
or between the bus seats.  The horses don't sit as dogs do, but they either
stand or lie down instead.  They do all the usual guide tasks such as
stopping at curbs and stairs, going around obstacles, changing speed for
uneven footing or for ice, mud, water, etc., looking out for overhead
obstacles, turning left and right on cue, monitoring moving vehicles at
driveways and street crossings and exercising intelligent disobedience when
necessary, and finding specific places in the environment, such as doors to
go inside or outside, elevators, stairs, checkout counters, pedestrian
signal buttons, home, etc.  And yes, they are housetrained and relieve on
leash and on cue, just as the dogs do.

The organization I mentioned earlier, the Guide Horse Foundation, trained
the first working guide horse team, Dan Shaw and Cuddles, in the spring of
2001.  That organization trained a few more teams in the next couple of
years.  But as far as I can tell, they haven't been active in recent years.
All of the active teams that I am aware of, except for Dan Shaw and Cuddles,
have miniature horses which were privately trained or owner trained.

I hope that answers some of your questions.

Best,
Ann

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Daryl Marie
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 12:47 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: [nagdu] Miniature Guide Horses WAS Cincinnati Family with miniature
horse service animal, sues city.

Hi, Ann,

May I ask what prompted the change from guide dogs to guide horse?  Who
trains a guide horse?  Does it guide similar to a dog?  I am very curious!

Daryl
----- Original Message -----
From: Ann Edie <annedie at nycap.rr.com>
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 13:34:56 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Cincinnati Family with miniature horse service animal,
sues city.

Hi, 

FYI, I use the same size plastic bags for picking up after my miniature
horse guide as I did for picking up after my dog guides.

Also, I keep my miniature horse guide at my property, a privately-owned
house in the suburbs with a lot not too much bigger than the one mentioned
in the article.  The town officials in my town as well as the animal control
officer and the code enforcement people are all aware of the presence of my
miniature horse guide, and none has given me a hassle about it.  My area is
zoned residential and does not permit what they call livestock.  (I know
this because the neighbors and town officials certainly did react quickly
when my daughter attempted to keep 4 baby chickens she rescued from her 8th
grade biology class in a pen in our backyard.  That requires a zoning
variance and the agreement of the neighbors.)

Anyway, I'm not here to support the keeping of any or all of the other
animals, but my miniature horse at least is considerably quieter than the
dogs that live on either side of my property, both of which bark incessantly
at anyone who moves in their vicinity.  And as for smell, I pick up after my
horse 4-6 times a day and there is never a pile left in the yard, whereas
the neighbors' dogs are allowed to leave piles in their yards for many days
before the waste is picked up, if ever.  And--this may be a matter of
opinion--but horse manure is nowhere near as bad smelling or objectionable
to pick up as is dog droppings.

My miniature horse is a trained service animal and I have the same right to
keep her in my home and to be accompanied by her in all places of public
accommodation as I would if she were a dog guide.  I believe the family in
this article may not be claiming that the horse is a trained service animal
for use in public, but rather as a medically prescribed support animal which
can be kept in the home under the Fair Housing Act.  I have only seen this
law used in the case of public housing or rental properties, so don't know
if that law applies to privately owned homes and to town zoning codes.  But
I have heard of a couple of court cases where the lawyers brought into court
a miniature horse and a large, rambunctious mastiff or great Dane for the
court to compare as to which might be more noisy, smelly, and disruptive to
neighborhood tranquility.  Which do you think would come out on top?

Best,
Ann

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