[nagdu] Fwd: Starting with clicker training?

Julie J. julielj at neb.rr.com
Wed Jul 9 00:39:06 UTC 2014 

Vivianna,

There are ways to inappropriately use clicker, just like you can 
inappropriately give leash corrections.  If a dog won't work unless there is 
food on offer, it has not been appropriately trained.  My current guide, 
Monty, likes food a lot.   He was clicker trained, for the most part. He 
does not scrounge, steal food or act inappropriately around food.  If you 
give him food, he will certainly take it, but he will not take what isn't 
his.

Also I think there is some confusion about clicker training.  I've been 
working Monty for 5 plus years now.  I honestly can't remember the last time 
I used or even took the clicker with me on one of our regular errands or 
walks to work.  It has been years since the clicker was a regular part of 
our equipment.  I get it out if I'm teaching something new or if I need to 
brush up on a problem area, but I'm not clicking and treating all day every 
day.  That's silly.  He's trained.  I don't need to keep reinforcing those 
skills.  I think that's how the no work no food problem might be coming up. 
There is definitely a point when you need to phase out the clicker and 
treats.  I think folks are misunderstanding that part.

Julie


-----Original Message----- 
From: Vivianna via nagdu
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2014 7:12 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: [nagdu] Fwd: Starting with clicker training?


> i actually know of one woman who had to send her dog back because it was 
> so food obsessed.
> she was in a mall when she ran out of treats.  she was at the bottom of a 
> flight of stairs and the dog refused to go forward because she did not 
> have a treat to give it.  also, that dog was horrible in any store with 
> food in it.
> no way, not for me.
> it seems to me that offering food for everything would encourage 
> scrounging in a major way.
> i know many many folks will swear by it but, it’s not for me.
> so, how do you train for something like over head objects?  you are 
> walking along and you run your face into a branch.  then what?
> and, what if your dog is just being a brat that day and runs a curb?
> you can’t just stop without saying anything and rework it?
> no and even a leash correction can be a very fine thing.  smile.
> mind you, i am not leash correcting my dog all day long.  i may have to 
> give her 1 every couple days or, maybe not for a week.
>
> i know this woman who thought clicker training her horse would be a cool 
> thing to do.
> so, she did it.  whenever her horse did a movement properly, she would 
> give it a treat.
> then it was show time and, she was riding a test for the judge.  her horse 
> kept stopping and looking for a treat after every move.  needless to say, 
> she failed badly.
> then, she had to try and undo all of that treat orientation.  lol.
>
> Vivianna
>
> On Jul 8, 2014, at 6:59 PM, Buddy Brannan <buddy at brannan.name> wrote:
>
>> Vivianna,
>>
>> I agree there’s lots of value in those “old-fashioned” methods. Clicker 
>> or whatever marker you choose has its value as well. While I believe that 
>> we definitely want to teach our dogs what we expect of them, and there 
>> are lots of great methods to do this, unlike some trainers of “modern” 
>> schools of thought, I also believe it’s perfectly reasonable, desirable, 
>> and acceptable to teach your dog that there are things that are *not* 
>> acceptable, behaviors you *don’t* want, and boundaries they cannot cross. 
>> So, yes, rewarding behavior you want is great, but it has to, I believe, 
>> be balanced with teaching what you don’t want. In my world, there are 
>> sometimes consequences for actions. Also, I think that once your dog 
>> starts to understand a task, phasing out the treats really has to happen, 
>> if you use them. And there’s nothing wrong with using them to teach a 
>> behavior or task. But IMO, a food-obsessed dog with the “will work for 
>> food” sign sounds a little unsafe.
>>
>> On Jul 8, 2014, at 7:50 PM, Vivianna <irishana at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> i personally do not use clicker training.
>>> during convention one woman told me that she was using the click and 
>>> treat if her dog did a traffic check. ok, i just don’t get this.  why 
>>> would i ever want my dog to turn it’s head towards me seeking a treat 
>>> just after a traffic check?  my dog should continue to look out for 
>>> traffic?
>>> another thing she told me was that dog was always seeking treats not 
>>> only from her but from strangers, putting it’s nose in their hands.
>>> i’ll stick with the traditional good old, good girl and lots of praise.
>>>
>>> Vivianna
>>>
>>> On Jul 8, 2014, at 5:30 PM, Buddy Brannan via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> This might help:
>>>> http://www.sue-eh.ca/page24/page23/
>>>>
>>>> The original levels are available for free, but you can buy the new 
>>>> edition for $25 in accessible formats. I have it.
>>>>
>>>> I’m not convinced that any one training method is *the* answer to 
>>>> everything, nor is one training philosophy correct to every situation 
>>>> or even every dog. There’s value to be had with a variety of tools.
>>>>
>>>> On Jul 8, 2014, at 5:39 PM, Julie J. via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Daryl,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure exactly what you mean by starting clicker training alone. 
>>>>> I started using clicker training with Belle.  I did read lots and lots 
>>>>> of books.  I had a couple of email lists specific to clicker training 
>>>>> where I asked lots of questions.  For a while I had a trainer I worked 
>>>>> with by phone, but that didn't turn out so well.  she was sighted and 
>>>>> could only give sighted people instructions.  I was too new to the 
>>>>> concepts to be able to problem solve non visual ways myself.  I was 
>>>>> frustrated and gave it up for a short bit.  that's when I found the 
>>>>> email lists, which turned out to be much more helpful.
>>>>>
>>>>> I live in a really small town, so there are no group classes or local 
>>>>> trainers that use clicker training.  I've always wanted to go to a 
>>>>> weekend workshop on clicker, but those don't come anywhere close.  All 
>>>>> my connections to clicker knowledge have been through the computer. 
>>>>> If that's what you mean by starting alone, then I think there are 
>>>>> several folks on this list that fit that description.
>>>>>
>>>>> You can totally do it yourself.  Just read and get comfortable with 
>>>>> the ideas.  when you are ready start with the very basics of getting 
>>>>> Jenny introduced to the concept of click means reward is coming.  then 
>>>>> move on to a hand touch.  From there you can teach most anything. 
>>>>> Just remember not to go too fast or lump too much in together.  that's 
>>>>> my biggest challenge.
>>>>>
>>>>> Think of it like building a block tower.  One block in the right place 
>>>>> gets a click and a treat.  Sure one block looks nothing like you want 
>>>>> the finished tower, but it is the first step.  Next time it's two 
>>>>> blocks, and the next it's three...until she gets the to the finished 
>>>>> behavior.  At first it will seem really slow.  That's because you are 
>>>>> still fine tuning your technique and Jenny is learning to think 
>>>>> differently.  The time it takes to teach a completed task will become 
>>>>> dramatically faster the more you use clicker.
>>>>>
>>>>> HTH
>>>>> Julie
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Daryl Marie via nagdu
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2014 2:09 PM
>>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Starting with clicker training?
>>>>>
>>>>> hi!
>>>>>
>>>>> As I am moving away from the correction/choke collar, I am considering 
>>>>> using clicker training in my partnership with Jenny.  Has anyone 
>>>>> started clicker training on their own? Any pointers? Dos and Don'ts? 
>>>>> I know Raven posted www.clickertraining.com as a great resource, but 
>>>>> it feel really really overwhelming!
>>>>>
>>>>> Daryl and Jenny
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40neb.rr.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----
>>>>> No virus found in this message.
>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>>> Version: 2012.0.2247 / Virus Database: 3955/7315 - Release Date: 
>>>>> 07/08/14
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/buddy%40brannan.name
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>>> nagdu:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/irishana%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>


_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40neb.rr.com


-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2247 / Virus Database: 3955/7315 - Release Date: 07/08/14

More information about the NAGDU mailing list