[nagdu] Fwd: Starting with clicker training?
Julie J.
julielj at neb.rr.com
Wed Jul 9 01:11:56 UTC 2014
If you don't want to use clicker training, then don't. I am in no way
saying it's for everyone or that it's the only way. It's just what has
worked for me.
I'll explain how I taught overheads and curbs, but I'm not really sure why
you want to know so badly. It doesn't seem like information that would be
useful to you.
I start in a place where I know where the overhead or curb is. I work the
dog toward the obstacle. If the dog is very green I might stop and show the
dog the branch/curb. then I'll show the dog what I want by heeling him
around the branch or tapping the curb with my foot before moving on. If the
dog is ready to take on a bit more responsibility I'll back up and let the
dog work me up to the obstacle, clicking and giving a treat for any slowing
or evidence that he is thinking about my safety. It doesn't have to be
perfect, just a hint that we are on the right track. Then we repeat until
he is understanding the concept. Then it's off to a bunch of other similar
situations so he can get in practice and generalize the skill.
Monty is 7 now. If he misses a curb, which is rare, I don't correct.
Usually my stumbling or startling is more than enough of a correction for
him. I don't say anything. I back up and rework it. He doesn't goof up on
his second try. He's a seasoned guide.
If he seems distracted, I try to figure out what is going on and fix it.
Yesterday I was going into a restaurant with a few other people. I got a
fair bit ahead and Monty kept looking back to see where the other people
were. I could have corrected him, but it would have just made him more
anxious about where the rest of the group was. The better choice was to
wait until my son caught up. then Monty feels better about us being all
together and we can go on our merry way. and I know some of you are
thinking, but if I want to go where ever and I don't want to walk with my
group, then by god I want my dog to do that. That's fine, if that works for
you. It's just not how I choose to work with my dog.
For me it's about being respectful of Monty and our relationship. If he
feels better knowing that all his people are together and accounted for,
then I'm willing to wait ten seconds for him to have that. He waits around
for me all day every day. If he goofs on a curb or overhang, I'm going to
assume that it was an honest mistake and give him the opportunity to do it
correctly.
If you are happy with the way you work your dog, then don't change it.
Daryl isn't. she's looking for a different approach. she asked, so I was
sharing what worked for me.
Julie
-----Original Message-----
From: Vivianna via nagdu
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2014 7:45 PM
To: Julie J.
Cc: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fwd: Starting with clicker training?
during convention i saw one dog, age 8 who was still getting treats,
although she just said good boy and did not use a clicker. also saw another
dog, age 6, same thing.
the one dog put it’s nose in my hand twice, just checking. heh.
ok, so you say all this but, i still don’t have an answer about training for
over head obstacles or curb running when the dog knows better.
yess, i am being devil’s advocate here but, i am also truly interested in
how this can be done successfully.
and, it’s good for folks to know that, clicker is not the one and true only
way to have a well trained guide.
vivianna
On Jul 8, 2014, at 7:39 PM, Julie J. <julielj at neb.rr.com> wrote:
> Vivianna,
>
> There are ways to inappropriately use clicker, just like you can
> inappropriately give leash corrections. If a dog won't work unless there
> is food on offer, it has not been appropriately trained. My current
> guide, Monty, likes food a lot. He was clicker trained, for the most
> part. He does not scrounge, steal food or act inappropriately around food.
> If you give him food, he will certainly take it, but he will not take what
> isn't his.
>
> Also I think there is some confusion about clicker training. I've been
> working Monty for 5 plus years now. I honestly can't remember the last
> time I used or even took the clicker with me on one of our regular errands
> or walks to work. It has been years since the clicker was a regular part
> of our equipment. I get it out if I'm teaching something new or if I need
> to brush up on a problem area, but I'm not clicking and treating all day
> every day. That's silly. He's trained. I don't need to keep reinforcing
> those skills. I think that's how the no work no food problem might be
> coming up. There is definitely a point when you need to phase out the
> clicker and treats. I think folks are misunderstanding that part.
>
> Julie
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Vivianna via nagdu
> Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2014 7:12 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: [nagdu] Fwd: Starting with clicker training?
>
>
>> i actually know of one woman who had to send her dog back because it was
>> so food obsessed.
>> she was in a mall when she ran out of treats. she was at the bottom of a
>> flight of stairs and the dog refused to go forward because she did not
>> have a treat to give it. also, that dog was horrible in any store with
>> food in it.
>> no way, not for me.
>> it seems to me that offering food for everything would encourage
>> scrounging in a major way.
>> i know many many folks will swear by it but, it’s not for me.
>> so, how do you train for something like over head objects? you are
>> walking along and you run your face into a branch. then what?
>> and, what if your dog is just being a brat that day and runs a curb?
>> you can’t just stop without saying anything and rework it?
>> no and even a leash correction can be a very fine thing. smile.
>> mind you, i am not leash correcting my dog all day long. i may have to
>> give her 1 every couple days or, maybe not for a week.
>>
>> i know this woman who thought clicker training her horse would be a cool
>> thing to do.
>> so, she did it. whenever her horse did a movement properly, she would
>> give it a treat.
>> then it was show time and, she was riding a test for the judge. her
>> horse kept stopping and looking for a treat after every move. needless
>> to say, she failed badly.
>> then, she had to try and undo all of that treat orientation. lol.
>>
>> Vivianna
>>
>> On Jul 8, 2014, at 6:59 PM, Buddy Brannan <buddy at brannan.name> wrote:
>>
>>> Vivianna,
>>>
>>> I agree there’s lots of value in those “old-fashioned” methods. Clicker
>>> or whatever marker you choose has its value as well. While I believe
>>> that we definitely want to teach our dogs what we expect of them, and
>>> there are lots of great methods to do this, unlike some trainers of
>>> “modern” schools of thought, I also believe it’s perfectly reasonable,
>>> desirable, and acceptable to teach your dog that there are things that
>>> are *not* acceptable, behaviors you *don’t* want, and boundaries they
>>> cannot cross. So, yes, rewarding behavior you want is great, but it has
>>> to, I believe, be balanced with teaching what you don’t want. In my
>>> world, there are sometimes consequences for actions. Also, I think that
>>> once your dog starts to understand a task, phasing out the treats really
>>> has to happen, if you use them. And there’s nothing wrong with using
>>> them to teach a behavior or task. But IMO, a food-obsessed dog with the
>>> “will work for food” sign sounds a little unsafe.
>>>
>>> On Jul 8, 2014, at 7:50 PM, Vivianna <irishana at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> i personally do not use clicker training.
>>>> during convention one woman told me that she was using the click and
>>>> treat if her dog did a traffic check. ok, i just don’t get this. why
>>>> would i ever want my dog to turn it’s head towards me seeking a treat
>>>> just after a traffic check? my dog should continue to look out for
>>>> traffic?
>>>> another thing she told me was that dog was always seeking treats not
>>>> only from her but from strangers, putting it’s nose in their hands.
>>>> i’ll stick with the traditional good old, good girl and lots of praise.
>>>>
>>>> Vivianna
>>>>
>>>> On Jul 8, 2014, at 5:30 PM, Buddy Brannan via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> This might help:
>>>>> http://www.sue-eh.ca/page24/page23/
>>>>>
>>>>> The original levels are available for free, but you can buy the new
>>>>> edition for $25 in accessible formats. I have it.
>>>>>
>>>>> I’m not convinced that any one training method is *the* answer to
>>>>> everything, nor is one training philosophy correct to every situation
>>>>> or even every dog. There’s value to be had with a variety of tools.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jul 8, 2014, at 5:39 PM, Julie J. via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Daryl,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not sure exactly what you mean by starting clicker training
>>>>>> alone. I started using clicker training with Belle. I did read lots
>>>>>> and lots of books. I had a couple of email lists specific to clicker
>>>>>> training where I asked lots of questions. For a while I had a
>>>>>> trainer I worked with by phone, but that didn't turn out so well.
>>>>>> she was sighted and could only give sighted people instructions. I
>>>>>> was too new to the concepts to be able to problem solve non visual
>>>>>> ways myself. I was frustrated and gave it up for a short bit.
>>>>>> that's when I found the email lists, which turned out to be much more
>>>>>> helpful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I live in a really small town, so there are no group classes or local
>>>>>> trainers that use clicker training. I've always wanted to go to a
>>>>>> weekend workshop on clicker, but those don't come anywhere close.
>>>>>> All my connections to clicker knowledge have been through the
>>>>>> computer. If that's what you mean by starting alone, then I think
>>>>>> there are several folks on this list that fit that description.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can totally do it yourself. Just read and get comfortable with
>>>>>> the ideas. when you are ready start with the very basics of getting
>>>>>> Jenny introduced to the concept of click means reward is coming.
>>>>>> then move on to a hand touch. From there you can teach most
>>>>>> anything. Just remember not to go too fast or lump too much in
>>>>>> together. that's my biggest challenge.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Think of it like building a block tower. One block in the right
>>>>>> place gets a click and a treat. Sure one block looks nothing like
>>>>>> you want the finished tower, but it is the first step. Next time
>>>>>> it's two blocks, and the next it's three...until she gets the to the
>>>>>> finished behavior. At first it will seem really slow. That's
>>>>>> because you are still fine tuning your technique and Jenny is
>>>>>> learning to think differently. The time it takes to teach a
>>>>>> completed task will become dramatically faster the more you use
>>>>>> clicker.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> HTH
>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Daryl Marie via nagdu
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2014 2:09 PM
>>>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Starting with clicker training?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> hi!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As I am moving away from the correction/choke collar, I am
>>>>>> considering using clicker training in my partnership with Jenny. Has
>>>>>> anyone started clicker training on their own? Any pointers? Dos and
>>>>>> Don'ts? I know Raven posted www.clickertraining.com as a great
>>>>>> resource, but it feel really really overwhelming!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Daryl and Jenny
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>
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