[nagdu] acceptance of owner training was Arkansas School Refuses To Hold Leash For 7-Year-Old Boy's Service Dog

[Daryl Marie]

I am quite curious as to the legality of OTs in Canada.  In Canada, you can be requested for documentation of your guide dog - this has never happened to me, but I wonder what people do while traveling.

Daryl and Jenny - who is a program-trained dog
----- Original Message -----
From: Tami Jarvis via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
To: Julie J <julielj at neb.rr.com>, NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Mon, 14 Jul 2014 15:36:18 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: [nagdu] acceptance of owner training was Arkansas School Refuses To Hold Leash For 7-Year-Old Boy's Service Dog

Julie,

Yup! That's about my experience. I have the perception that there is 
more acceptance of guide dog owner-trainers than there was when I 
started 6 years ago, mostly because of the greater intermingling allowed 
by the internet and e-mail lists and social networking, as well as the 
really stellar owner-trainers in their great dogs who show up to 
conventions and such to disprove the assumptions that owner-trained dogs 
must surely suck. I also find that those on this list are more accepting 
than those in other venues and that even discussion of a more negative 
view of owner-training and issues surrounding owner-trained guides is 
more intelligent and thoughtful.

Based on attitudes I caught when I was a cane user about what "They" let 
blind people do, I think the shock that "They" let us train our own dogs 
comes mostly from the notion that we must need taking care of and isn't 
it great that the state does that because gee, aren't we so enlightened. 
/lol/ That was from the Portland area, although more people there assume 
that of course blind people can do stuff, so why not dog training? Those 
folks ask questions about methods and legalities, but seemingly out of 
genuine curiosity about this new thing that just came to their attention.

My general experience regarding sources of greatest negativity and the 
most obnoxiously dished out negativity are pretty similar. I need to 
stop there because I start foaming at the mouth when I try to say more 
or give examples. Bleh! Oh, well, what would life be without frequent 
insults to myself and my dog, along with some of my most respected 
friends and their dogs? /lol/

Tami



On 07/14/2014 11:54 AM, Julie J via nagdu wrote:
> I think owner training is more accepted than it once was, but to say that it is "accepted" as in the same way service dogs from programs are accepted...I don't think so.
>
> The folks on this list tend to be more accepting of owner training, but even here there are people who think it is dangerous and the dog won't be trained to the same level as a progam dog.
>
> If you talk about owner training a guide dog as a blind person on email lists for other types of service dogs, you will generally meet with great resistance.  I think because blind people are near the bottom of the social status disability ladder.  So blind people couldn't possibly train their own guides.
>
> I've had blind people, who are cane users, say pretty awful things about my choice to owner train.  Mostly that happened in the beginning though.  I guess enough people have seen my dogs work, at least in my home area, that it's no longer an interesting topic of conversation.
>
> Sighted people I encounter in my day to day life couldn't care less, for the most part.  Mostly they see a blind person and a dog and they fabricate the rest of the story based on what they saw on TV.  The part about my having trained the dog doesn't come up very often.  Generally I don't bring it up.  Sometimes people ask though, and I am very open about the fact that I trained him.  I think a lot of times they want to know where I got the dog because they have some knowledge or affiliation with some program or another.  When they find out I trained him, they are astonished that it is legal/possible or they want to know if it's legal.  I'm not sure what the immediate response of, "is that legal", says about our culture...too many laws?...too much restriction on our freedom?...a statement about what disabled people's place in society?  I don't know.
>
> Then we get to service dog programs...there are a couple that don't react like beligerant idiots about owner trained dogs, but the rest...well, I'll just stop there.  The short version is that most of the guide and service dog programs do not like the idea of owner training.
>
> anyway, that's my opinion based on my personal experience.  It will be interesting to see what other owner trainers have experienced.
> Julie
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Jul 14, 2014, at 1:24 PM, Danielle Antoine via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> Tami,
>> I like how you dissected my points. that's what I was looking for.
>> Buddy, whether or not it was your intention you came at me like the
>> enemy! Any veteran who has worked in the service dog arena personally
>> or who has availed themselves of the many lists know that a specific
>> program does not have to be named and that owner-training is
>> recognized and acceptable. I, myself, am not in the right situation in
>> life to take it on. It is a lot less trouble for me, at this point to
>> just attend a training program for my nex guide. I was just curious
>> because I wondered what program would give license to a 7-year-old
>> child to handle and be responsible for a dog requiring an additional
>> person. Just seems sooooo unnecessary! As for me, my pup is retired
>> and living the good life of a pet dog and children and exes don't
>> count at this time. Good day, Sir.
>>
>> Best with your owner training undertakings,
>> Danielle Ledet and retired Seeing Eye Golden girl, Eden
>>
>>
>>> On 7/14/14, Tami Jarvis via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> Rebecca,
>>>
>>> You're right about the dog's ability to sense the seizure (or whatever
>>> medical disorder) -- it can or it can't. However, the difference between
>>> a plain old dog that happens to be able to detect seizures and a medical
>>> alert service dog is whether the dog is trained to perform a specific
>>> alerting behavior. Often the medical alert SD will perform additional
>>> actions, like getting the handler to a safe place to prepare for the
>>> seizure, laying on the handler to help prevent injury during the seizure
>>> and a few other things. The article mentioned that the dog has
>>> eliminated the need for medication, so I guess locating the medicine
>>> bottle for the handler wouldn't be needed.
>>>
>>> As for the rest, I just don't know. Part of it is that I am not all that
>>> well-informed about the issues when it comes to kids, service dogs and
>>> schools. I can see both sides, depending on which way I squint. I wonder
>>> if having a staffer handle the dog in this case could be considered to
>>> be the equivalent of having a staffer push a wheelchair? Or do the dog's
>>> needs for handling make it that much more demanding?
>>>
>
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