[nagdu] On Ownership
Alyssa
alyssahenson95 at gmail.com
Fri May 2 16:19:06 UTC 2014
This is part of why I chose the seeing eye for my replacement dog. Then if it doesn't work out, I get to choose what happens to the dog. Also, my class supervisor at Leader scared me. I love the school and most of its people, but this woman absolutely used the ownership policy against the clients. I too like owning the dog upon completion of training. Just my thoughts.
Alyssa
Sent from my iPhone
> On May 2, 2014, at 11:09 AM, "Michael Hingson" <info at michaelhingson.com> wrote:
>
> Craig,
>
> I hear you, but the school did accept you and you accepted the school and
> its techniques. You take a chance that all the processes and procedures of
> the school will work for you. There is no guarantee in life. We should be
> judged by the same criteria as others.
>
> The Leader Dog example is as graphic as it gets. The claim is, they said,
> that they changed their policy simply because school management said it saw
> an increase in dog obesity. So why does such an increase justify how they
> treat dog ownership by the handler? The fact is that it does not.
>
> The schools always have recourse to remove a mistreated dog from an
> environment. Animal control, the courts, and the law should apply here just
> as in any other case. Why should schools have an advantage and an extra
> opportunity to intimidate? Schools have misused a lack of ownership by
> handlers to intimidate them make no mistake.
>
> No, not granting immediate ownership is paternalistic. If the schools train
> properly, if they do a thorough job of assessing the incoming student and
> later the team performance during training, and if the school personnel is
> confident in its own abilities to evaluate and if the staff has faith in
> blind people then granting ownership immediately is a no brainer.
>
>
> Best,
>
>
> Michael Hingson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Craig Heaps
> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 08:49 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership
>
> I confess I see it differently. The guide dogs schools have invested tens
> of thousands of dollars into breeding and training the dogs. I don't know
> how the others work, but GDB provided free room and board for two weeks to
> me, trained me for free, and provided my dog for free for my use when I
> graduated. So, while I have an obviours stake in the dog and my
> relationship with him (or her), the school has an incredible responsibility
> for the dog.
>
> They accepted me on the basis of an applicaton and a home interview. While
> I'm sure they did their due diligence, there's no way they could know my
> ultimate success or failure wiht a dog in that process plus the two weeks I
> spent with them for training. If I should prove to be any one of a number
> of things -- incompetent, negligent, cruel, psychotic, neurotic, probiotic
> (sorry, I got caught up in the rythm of the thing) -- what recourse would
> they have to rescue the dog from me?
>
> GDB allows me to apply for owership after a year. I'm a couple months away
> from that anniversary and I don't know what I'll do. It really makes no
> difference to me. I'm holding Chase's harness handle every day. I buy his
> food and feed him. I buy the plastic bags and pick up after him. He sleeps
> next to my bed. In real, practical terms, I don't see what difference it
> makes.
>
> I tend to think of it as responsible rather than paternalistic on the part
> of the school.
>
> Craig and Chase (who technically belongs to Guide Dogs for the Blind)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 6:31 AM
> Subject: [nagdu] On Ownership
>
>
>> It is my opinion that the failure to grant ownership upon completion
>> of training is founded in the underlying belief that blind people are
>> incapable of caring for a dog and must prove their ability to do so before
>> they are afforded this fundamental right! No matter how it is couched,
>> such
>> a policy is paternalistic!
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion Gwizdala
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray
>> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 9:30 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Attention: New Leader Dog Ownership Policy
>>
>> Well, it does have to do with ownership policy. The implemented it because
>> guide dogs were obese; they lowered it because blind graduates were
>> starting
>> to do better because the obesity rate is down. Do you think the obesity
>> rate
>> in dogs should have anything to do with ownership? What I was saying is,
>> if
>> you have to wait one minute for that reason, then it seems you are being
>> treated as if you are not capable of good judgment. My point was that
>> people
>> with pets don't have to wait a year or two to see if their dogs are going
>> to
>> be obese or not.
>>
>> Cindy
>>
>> On May 1, 2014, at 7:37 PM, Nicole Torcolini <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> No, I don't think that ownership is the way to solve the problem, but,
>>> if you looked at the average life expectancy of the breeds that are
>>> used as guide/service dogs for pet versus service/guide dog, you would
>>> probably find that, between a higher level of physical activity, more
>>> attention to weight, and more attention to health in general,
>>> service/guide dogs live longer than pets. And yes, being obese is bad
>>> for the health of a dog. Obesity is a slightly different problem in
>>> dogs than in humans. Humans know that we are going to get our next
>>> meal. Even though dogs have been domesticated for a long time, they
>>> still go on the instinct that they don't know when their next meal
>>> will be and therefore eat anything you put in front of them to the
>>> point of even making themselves sick. But, back to my original point, no,
>> this is not something that has anything to do with an ownership policy.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 5:23 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Attention: New Leader Dog Ownership Policy
>>>
>>> Think about it. How many pet dogs are obese? You must know that lots
>>> of them are because people over feed the dogs-table scraps, ice cream,
>>> whipped cream, whatever. So I ask you, how many pet dogs are obese?
>>> Probably they suffer the same problem as people. Many of us are over fed,
>> too.
>>>
>>> Cindy
>>>
>>> On May 1, 2014, at 7:12 PM, Nicole Torcolini
>>> <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't quite understand what you meant. Are you saying that a lot of
>>>> pet dogs are obese or not many are obese?
>>>>
>>>> Nicole
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 2:16 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: Attention: New Leader Dog Ownership Policy
>>>>
>>>> I think this is laughable. How many pet dogs are obese? Isn't it as
>>>> unhealthy for them? Their owners aren't required to wait two years
>>>> before applying for ownership of the dog.
>>>>
>>>> Cindy Lou
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 30, 2014, at 4:06 PM, Marion Gwizdala <blind411 at verizon.net>
>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>> I would like to comment on this message as president of the
>>>>> National
>>>>
>>>>> Association of Guide Dog Users. As this message states, Leader Dogs
>>>>> for the Blind changed its ownership policy around April of 2007. In
>>>>> July of that year, I presided at my first NAGDU annual meeting as
>>>>> Vice President of the organization. During our meetings, Leader was
>>>>> provided an opportunity to share an update with our membership, as
>>>>> has been our custom for quite some time. One of the pieces of
>>>>> information Leader failed to mention was their change in ownership
>>>>> policy. In August of 2007, I called Leader and spoke with Rod
>>>>> Haneline about this apparent oversight. At that time, Mr. Haneline
>>>>> advised me that the change in ownership policy was in response to
>>>>> the negative attention the case of Craig Miller who kicked his
>>>>> Leader Dog, Inky to death in a drunken rage had garnered. There are
>>>>> a number of challenges to this explanation. One major challenge is
>>>>> that, at the time of the incident, Mr. Miller had had his dog for
>>>>> more than the two years the new ownership policy provided for. The
>>>>> other major challenge is that there is no way to predict such
>>>>> behavior and no restriction of ownership would
>>>> have made a difference.
>>>>>
>>>>> During last year's meeting, the question about their ownership
>>>> policy
>>>>> was posed to Leader again and this was when the issue of obesity was
>>>>> brought up. Though this sound like a reasonable explanation, no
>>>>> objective evidence that an obesity problem exists has ever been
>>>>> offered. Now the policy has been changed to one year because the
>>>>> obesity rates have gone down. Still, no objective evidence has been
>>>>> offered that there is a problem, in spite of the assertion that the
>>>>> rates are lower. Though I would like to believe those who tender
>>>>> such an argument have evidence to support their argument, as a
>>>>> professional who relies upon research to guide my practice,I am
>>>>> trained to be skeptical of unsupported claims. As of yet, I have
>>>>> seen no evidence of an obesity problem among guide dogs. If there
>>>>> was a problem and now the problem is less, let us see the pre-
>>>>> post-study evidence! While we are at it, let's also see a
>>>>> correlative study of those programs who transfer ownership and those
>>>>> who do not so we can ascertain if there is a difference between the
>>>>> two groups. Here is an interesting statistic I would like to share
>>>>> with you to drive home the point: 87% of all statistics are made up
>>>>> on the spot! Of course, that's a cynical
>>>> statement, but I think you get the point!
>>>>>
>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>>
>>>>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>>>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
>>>>> National Federation of the Blind
>>>>> (813) 626-2789
>>>>> (888) 624-3841 (Hotline)
>>>>> President at nagdu.org
>>>>> http://www.nagdu.org
>>>>>
>>>>> High expectations create unlimited potential for the blind!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of William
>>>>> Vandervest
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 10:56 AM
>>>>> To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Fw: Attention: New Leader Dog Ownership Policy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There are none so blind as those who will not see
>>>>>
>>>>> William and LD Lynard
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: Leader Dogs for the Blind
>>>>> To: timelord09 at att.net
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 9:31 AM
>>>>> Subject: Attention: New Leader Dog Ownership Policy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Graduate,
>>>>>
>>>>> Leader Dogs for the Blind is announcing that effective
>>>>> immediately we are reducing our transfer of ownership policy from
>>>>> two years to one year
>>>> for
>>>>> our guide dog clients (with the exception of clients from Spain and
>>>> Brazil,
>>>>> who follow their local organization's procedures).
>>>>>
>>>>> The previous policy that required clients to apply for ownership
>>>> after
>>>>> working with their dog for two years was put in place in 2007 to
>>>>> address
>>>> the
>>>>> growing number of working Leader Dogs who were overweight or obese.
>>>>> "The reason for the change is that over the past seven years, this
>>>>> problem has diminished as our clients have become more proactive at
>>>>> regulating their dogs' weight," said Will Henry, Leader Dog director
>>>>> of
>>> client services.
>>>>>
>>>>> The new policy grants automatic ownership, without the need to
>>>>> apply, to clients one year after their graduation date if they are
>>>>> in good
>>>> standing
>>>>> (not on probation, and with no complaints on file).
>>>>>
>>>>> Current clients (in good standing) who have had their Leader Dog
>>>>> longer than one year will receive automatic ownership as of May 1,
>>>>> 2014.
>>>>> Clients (in good standing) who received their Leader Dog after May
>>>>> 1,
>>>>> 2013 will receive automatic ownership one year after their
>>>>> graduation
>>> date.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you have questions about the ownership of your Leader Dog,
>>>>> please contact your client services coordinator at 888-777-5332.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>> Leader Dogs for the Blind
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You are receiving this message because you have shared your email
>>>>> address with Leader Dogs for the Blind. To ensure that you continue
>>>>> receiving our emails, please add us to your address book or safe list.
>>>>>
>>>>> Unsubscribe or manage your email preferences | Review our Privacy
>>>>> Policy
>>>>>
>>>>> Leader Dogs for the Blind, 1039 S. Rochester Rd., Rochester Hills,
>>>>> MI
>>>> 48307
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Forward email
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This email was sent to timelord09 at att.net by
>>>>> webmaster at leaderdog.org |
>>>>> Update Profile/Email Address | Instant removal with
>>>>> SafeUnsubscribeT | Privacy Policy.
>>>>>
>>>>> Leader Dogs for the Blind | 1039 S. Rochester Rd. |
>>>>> Rochester Hills | MI | 48309
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>> for
>>>> nagdu:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blind411%40verizo
>>>>> n
>>>>> .net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>> for
>>>> nagdu:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.
>>>>> c
>>>>> om
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nagdu:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavec
>>>> a
>>>> ble.co
>>>> m
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nagdu:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.c
>>>> o
>>>> m
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nagdu mailing list
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nagdu:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40waveca
>>> ble.co
>>> m
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nagdu mailing list
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nagdu:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.co
>>> m
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nagdu:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blind411%40verizon.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nagdu:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/craig.heaps%40comcast.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/info%40michaelhingson.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/alyssahenson95%40gmail.com
More information about the NAGDU
mailing list