[nagdu] On Ownership

Marion Gwizdala blind411 at verizon.net
Fri May 2 19:02:39 UTC 2014


Craig, One paradigm I think we need to shift is that the training program is
giving us something for nothing. Training programs solicit funds from the
general public as 501(c)(3) corporations. As such, they are accountable to
the public. Donors contribute to training programs because this is a way
they can better the lives of those they wish to help, since they have no
direct ability to do so otherwise. In short, the training programs receive
contributions from the public with the expressed intention of using those
funds to enhance our lives. If it were not for the blind and their
assertions they are helping us, where would the 6-figure salaries of the
CEOs and the less significant salaries of the staff come from? 

	As it true with any economy except that of a guide dog training
program and some other disabvility services, consumers satisfaction is the
driving force. Until we see ourselves as consumers with all the power that
term conveys, we will continue to be treated as second-class citizens.

Fraternally yours,
Marion Gwizdala




-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Craig Heaps
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 12:24 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership

Michael:

I understand the points you're making, and certainly don't think it's simply
one way or the other.

However, when the school accepted me, I also accpted the school.  I went to
GDB knowing the ownership policy.  I took all the things they gave me for
free, knowing it came with the stiuplation that I would not own the dog for
at least a year, if ever.

I don't know of another situation other than service dogs where someone
hands over to you a highly trained, living, breathing being for your benefit
at no charge.  Then regularly comes to provide extended instruction and
guidance at my home or work place.  I find it hard to complain about the
conditions they put on that.

I believe the schools have every right to withhold ownership of the dogs for
however long they choose.  I do not expect them to be infallible in their
screening or training.  And if they feel they need to retain ownership for a
time as a check on thier own fallibility, I'm ok with that.

Perhaps I'm less sensitive to perceived paternalism.  My sense of gratitude
might have overwhelmed it.

Craig



----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Hingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 9:09 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership


> Craig,
>
> I hear you, but the school did accept you and you accepted the school and
> its techniques.  You take a chance that all the processes and procedures 
> of
> the school will work for you.  There is no guarantee in life.  We should 
> be
> judged by the same criteria as others.
>
> The Leader Dog example is as graphic as it gets.  The claim is, they said,
> that they changed their policy simply because school management said it 
> saw
> an increase in dog obesity.  So why does such an increase justify how they
> treat dog ownership by the handler?  The fact is that it does not.
>
> The schools always have recourse to remove a mistreated dog from an
> environment.  Animal control, the courts, and the law should apply here 
> just
> as in any other case.  Why should schools have an advantage and an extra
> opportunity to intimidate?  Schools have misused a lack of ownership by
> handlers to intimidate them make no mistake.
>
> No, not granting immediate ownership is paternalistic.  If the schools 
> train
> properly, if they do a thorough job of assessing the incoming student and
> later the team performance during training, and if the school personnel is
> confident in its own abilities to evaluate and if the staff has faith in
> blind people then granting ownership immediately is a no brainer.
>
>
> Best,
>
>
> Michael Hingson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Craig Heaps
> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 08:49 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership
>
> I confess I see it differently.  The guide dogs schools have invested tens
> of thousands of dollars into breeding and training the dogs.  I don't know
> how the others work, but GDB provided free room and board for two weeks to
> me, trained me for free, and provided my dog for free for my use when I
> graduated.  So, while I have an obviours stake in the dog and my
> relationship with him (or her), the school has an incredible 
> responsibility
> for the dog.
>
> They accepted me on the basis of an applicaton and a home interview. 
> While
> I'm sure they did their due diligence, there's no way they could know my
> ultimate success or failure wiht a dog in that process plus the two weeks 
> I
> spent with them for training.  If I should prove to be any one of a number
> of things --  incompetent, negligent, cruel, psychotic, neurotic, 
> probiotic
> (sorry, I got caught up in the rythm of the thing) -- what recourse would
> they have to rescue the dog from me?
>
> GDB allows me to apply for owership after a year.  I'm a couple months 
> away
> from that anniversary and I don't know what I'll do.  It really makes no
> difference to me.  I'm holding Chase's harness handle every day.  I buy 
> his
> food and feed him.  I buy the plastic bags and pick up after him.  He 
> sleeps
> next to my bed.  In real, practical terms, I don't see what difference it
> makes.
>
> I tend to think of it as responsible rather than paternalistic on the part
> of the school.
>
> Craig and Chase (who technically belongs to Guide Dogs for the Blind)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 6:31 AM
> Subject: [nagdu] On Ownership
>
>
>> It is my opinion that the failure to grant ownership upon completion
>> of training is founded in the underlying belief that blind people are
>> incapable of caring for a dog and must prove their ability to do so 
>> before
>> they are afforded this fundamental right! No matter how it is couched,
>> such
>> a policy is paternalistic!
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion Gwizdala
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray
>> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 9:30 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Attention: New Leader Dog Ownership Policy
>>
>> Well, it does have to do with ownership policy. The implemented it 
>> because
>> guide dogs were obese; they lowered it because blind graduates were
>> starting
>> to do better because the obesity rate is down. Do you think the obesity
>> rate
>> in dogs should have anything to do with ownership? What I was saying is,
>> if
>> you have to wait one minute for that reason, then it seems you are being
>> treated as if you are not capable of good judgment. My point was that
>> people
>> with pets don't have to wait a year or two to see if their dogs are going
>> to
>> be obese or not.
>>
>> Cindy
>>
>> On May 1, 2014, at 7:37 PM, Nicole Torcolini <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> No, I don't think that ownership is the way to solve the problem, but,
>>> if you looked at the average life expectancy  of the breeds that are
>>> used as guide/service dogs for pet versus service/guide dog, you would
>>> probably find that, between a higher level of physical activity, more
>>> attention to weight, and more attention to health in general,
>>> service/guide dogs live longer than pets. And yes, being obese is bad
>>> for the health of a dog. Obesity is a slightly different problem in
>>> dogs than in humans. Humans know that we are going to get our next
>>> meal. Even though dogs have been domesticated for a long time, they
>>> still go on the instinct that they don't know when their next meal
>>> will be and therefore eat anything you put in front of them to the
>>> point of even making themselves sick. But, back to my original point, 
>>> no,
>> this is not something that has anything to do with an ownership policy.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 5:23 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Attention: New Leader Dog Ownership Policy
>>>
>>> Think about it. How many pet dogs are obese? You must know that lots
>>> of them are because people over feed the dogs-table scraps, ice cream,
>>> whipped cream, whatever. So I ask you, how many pet dogs are obese?
>>> Probably they suffer the same problem as people. Many of us are over 
>>> fed,
>> too.
>>>
>>> Cindy
>>>
>>> On May 1, 2014, at 7:12 PM, Nicole Torcolini
>>> <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't quite understand what you meant. Are you saying that a lot of
>>>> pet dogs are obese or not many are obese?
>>>>
>>>> Nicole
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 2:16 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: Attention: New Leader Dog Ownership Policy
>>>>
>>>> I think this is laughable. How many pet dogs are obese? Isn't it as
>>>> unhealthy for them? Their owners aren't required to wait two years
>>>> before applying for ownership of the dog.
>>>>
>>>> Cindy Lou
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 30, 2014, at 4:06 PM, Marion Gwizdala <blind411 at verizon.net>
>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>> I would like to comment on this message as president of the
>>>>> National
>>>>
>>>>> Association of Guide Dog Users. As this message states, Leader Dogs
>>>>> for the Blind changed its ownership policy around April of 2007. In
>>>>> July of that year, I presided at my first NAGDU annual meeting as
>>>>> Vice President of the organization. During our meetings, Leader was
>>>>> provided an opportunity to share an update with our membership, as
>>>>> has been our custom for quite some time. One of the pieces of
>>>>> information Leader failed to mention was their change in ownership
>>>>> policy. In August of 2007, I called Leader and spoke with Rod
>>>>> Haneline about this apparent oversight. At that time, Mr. Haneline
>>>>> advised me that the change in ownership policy was in response to
>>>>> the negative attention the case of Craig Miller who kicked his
>>>>> Leader Dog, Inky to death in a drunken rage had garnered. There are
>>>>> a number of challenges to this explanation. One major challenge is
>>>>> that, at the time of the incident, Mr. Miller had had his dog for
>>>>> more than the two years the new ownership policy provided for. The
>>>>> other major challenge is that there is no way to predict such
>>>>> behavior and no restriction of ownership would
>>>> have made a difference.
>>>>>
>>>>> During last year's meeting, the question about their ownership
>>>> policy
>>>>> was posed to Leader again and this was when the issue of obesity was
>>>>> brought up. Though this sound like a reasonable explanation, no
>>>>> objective evidence that an obesity problem exists has ever been
>>>>> offered. Now the policy has been changed to one year because the
>>>>> obesity rates have gone down. Still, no objective evidence has been
>>>>> offered that there is a problem, in spite of the assertion that the
>>>>> rates are lower. Though I would like to believe those who tender
>>>>> such an argument have evidence to support their argument, as a
>>>>> professional who relies upon research to guide my practice,I am
>>>>> trained to be skeptical of unsupported claims. As of yet, I have
>>>>> seen no evidence of an obesity problem among guide dogs. If there
>>>>> was a problem and now the problem is less, let us see the pre-
>>>>> post-study evidence! While we are at it, let's also see a
>>>>> correlative study of those programs who transfer ownership and those
>>>>> who do not so we can ascertain if there is a difference between the
>>>>> two groups. Here is an interesting statistic I would like to share
>>>>> with you to drive home the point: 87% of all statistics are made up
>>>>> on the spot! Of course, that's a cynical
>>>> statement, but I think you get the point!
>>>>>
>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>>
>>>>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>>>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
>>>>> National Federation of the Blind
>>>>> (813) 626-2789
>>>>> (888) 624-3841 (Hotline)
>>>>> President at nagdu.org
>>>>> http://www.nagdu.org
>>>>>
>>>>> High expectations create unlimited potential for the blind!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of William
>>>>> Vandervest
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 10:56 AM
>>>>> To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Fw: Attention: New Leader Dog Ownership Policy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There are none so blind as those who will not see
>>>>>
>>>>> William and LD Lynard
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: Leader Dogs for the Blind
>>>>> To: timelord09 at att.net
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 9:31 AM
>>>>> Subject: Attention: New Leader Dog Ownership Policy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Graduate,
>>>>>
>>>>>    Leader Dogs for the Blind is announcing that effective
>>>>> immediately we are reducing our transfer of ownership policy from
>>>>> two years to one year
>>>> for
>>>>> our guide dog clients (with the exception of clients from Spain and
>>>> Brazil,
>>>>> who follow their local organization's procedures).
>>>>>
>>>>>    The previous policy that required clients to apply for ownership
>>>> after
>>>>> working with their dog for two years was put in place in 2007 to
>>>>> address
>>>> the
>>>>> growing number of working Leader Dogs who were overweight or obese.
>>>>> "The reason for the change is that over the past seven years, this
>>>>> problem has diminished as our clients have become more proactive at
>>>>> regulating their dogs' weight," said Will Henry, Leader Dog director
>>>>> of
>>> client services.
>>>>>
>>>>>    The new policy grants automatic ownership, without the need to
>>>>> apply, to clients one year after their graduation date if they are
>>>>> in good
>>>> standing
>>>>> (not on probation, and with no complaints on file).
>>>>>
>>>>>    Current clients (in good standing) who have had their Leader Dog
>>>>> longer than one year will receive automatic ownership as of May 1,
>>>>> 2014.
>>>>> Clients (in good standing) who received their Leader Dog after May
>>>>> 1,
>>>>> 2013 will receive automatic ownership one year after their
>>>>> graduation
>>> date.
>>>>>
>>>>>    If you have questions about the ownership of your Leader Dog,
>>>>> please contact your client services coordinator at 888-777-5332.
>>>>>
>>>>>    Sincerely,
>>>>>    Leader Dogs for the Blind
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You are receiving this message because you have shared your email
>>>>> address with Leader Dogs for the Blind. To ensure that you continue
>>>>> receiving our emails, please add us to your address book or safe list.
>>>>>
>>>>> Unsubscribe or manage your email preferences | Review our Privacy
>>>>> Policy
>>>>>
>>>>> Leader Dogs for the Blind, 1039 S. Rochester Rd., Rochester Hills,
>>>>> MI
>>>> 48307
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          Forward email
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>          Leader Dogs for the Blind | 1039 S. Rochester Rd. |
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>> om
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