[nagdu] On Ownership
Larry D. Keeler
lkeeler at comcast.net
Fri May 2 20:22:31 UTC 2014
Well Bill, actually although I do aggree with you for the most part, I have
seen and heard of staff members at schools who use ownership and other
things to have the power over there clients. You and I haven't had that
experience but I have seen it practiced.
----- Original Message -----
From: "William Vandervest" <timelord09 at att.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership
>i am not that concerned about this ownership issue, nor do i see any
>paternalistic attitudes in schools thet do not grant imediat ownership, and
>quite frankly i think this whole issue is way overblowen and thet nagdu has
>far more importent things to be concerned with.
> we all enter into the agreements with the schools with the full knowledge
> of their contract, so if we don't like the schools ownership policy we are
> perfectly able to go somewhere else
>
>
> There are none so blind as those who will not see
>
> William and LD Lynard
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Craig Heaps" <craig.heaps at comcast.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 11:48 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership
>
>
>>I confess I see it differently. The guide dogs schools have invested tens
>>of thousands of dollars into breeding and training the dogs. I don't know
>>how the others work, but GDB provided free room and board for two weeks to
>>me, trained me for free, and provided my dog for free for my use when I
>>graduated. So, while I have an obviours stake in the dog and my
>>relationship with him (or her), the school has an incredible
>>responsibility for the dog.
>>
>> They accepted me on the basis of an applicaton and a home interview.
>> While I'm sure they did their due diligence, there's no way they could
>> know my ultimate success or failure wiht a dog in that process plus the
>> two weeks I spent with them for training. If I should prove to be any
>> one of a number of things -- incompetent, negligent, cruel, psychotic,
>> neurotic, probiotic (sorry, I got caught up in the rythm of the thing) --
>> what recourse would they have to rescue the dog from me?
>>
>> GDB allows me to apply for owership after a year. I'm a couple months
>> away from that anniversary and I don't know what I'll do. It really
>> makes no difference to me. I'm holding Chase's harness handle every day.
>> I buy his food and feed him. I buy the plastic bags and pick up after
>> him. He sleeps next to my bed. In real, practical terms, I don't see
>> what difference it makes.
>>
>> I tend to think of it as responsible rather than paternalistic on the
>> part of the school.
>>
>> Craig and Chase (who technically belongs to Guide Dogs for the Blind)
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 6:31 AM
>> Subject: [nagdu] On Ownership
>>
>>
>>> It is my opinion that the failure to grant ownership upon completion
>>> of training is founded in the underlying belief that blind people are
>>> incapable of caring for a dog and must prove their ability to do so
>>> before
>>> they are afforded this fundamental right! No matter how it is couched,
>>> such
>>> a policy is paternalistic!
>>>
>>> Fraternally yours,
>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 9:30 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Attention: New Leader Dog Ownership Policy
>>>
>>> Well, it does have to do with ownership policy. The implemented it
>>> because
>>> guide dogs were obese; they lowered it because blind graduates were
>>> starting
>>> to do better because the obesity rate is down. Do you think the obesity
>>> rate
>>> in dogs should have anything to do with ownership? What I was saying is,
>>> if
>>> you have to wait one minute for that reason, then it seems you are being
>>> treated as if you are not capable of good judgment. My point was that
>>> people
>>> with pets don't have to wait a year or two to see if their dogs are
>>> going to
>>> be obese or not.
>>>
>>> Cindy
>>>
>>> On May 1, 2014, at 7:37 PM, Nicole Torcolini <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> No, I don't think that ownership is the way to solve the problem, but,
>>>> if you looked at the average life expectancy of the breeds that are
>>>> used as guide/service dogs for pet versus service/guide dog, you would
>>>> probably find that, between a higher level of physical activity, more
>>>> attention to weight, and more attention to health in general,
>>>> service/guide dogs live longer than pets. And yes, being obese is bad
>>>> for the health of a dog. Obesity is a slightly different problem in
>>>> dogs than in humans. Humans know that we are going to get our next
>>>> meal. Even though dogs have been domesticated for a long time, they
>>>> still go on the instinct that they don't know when their next meal
>>>> will be and therefore eat anything you put in front of them to the
>>>> point of even making themselves sick. But, back to my original point,
>>>> no,
>>> this is not something that has anything to do with an ownership policy.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray
>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 5:23 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Attention: New Leader Dog Ownership Policy
>>>>
>>>> Think about it. How many pet dogs are obese? You must know that lots
>>>> of them are because people over feed the dogs-table scraps, ice cream,
>>>> whipped cream, whatever. So I ask you, how many pet dogs are obese?
>>>> Probably they suffer the same problem as people. Many of us are over
>>>> fed,
>>> too.
>>>>
>>>> Cindy
>>>>
>>>> On May 1, 2014, at 7:12 PM, Nicole Torcolini
>>>> <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I don't quite understand what you meant. Are you saying that a lot of
>>>>> pet dogs are obese or not many are obese?
>>>>>
>>>>> Nicole
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 2:16 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: Attention: New Leader Dog Ownership Policy
>>>>>
>>>>> I think this is laughable. How many pet dogs are obese? Isn't it as
>>>>> unhealthy for them? Their owners aren't required to wait two years
>>>>> before applying for ownership of the dog.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cindy Lou
>>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 30, 2014, at 4:06 PM, Marion Gwizdala <blind411 at verizon.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>> I would like to comment on this message as president of the
>>>>>> National
>>>>>
>>>>>> Association of Guide Dog Users. As this message states, Leader Dogs
>>>>>> for the Blind changed its ownership policy around April of 2007. In
>>>>>> July of that year, I presided at my first NAGDU annual meeting as
>>>>>> Vice President of the organization. During our meetings, Leader was
>>>>>> provided an opportunity to share an update with our membership, as
>>>>>> has been our custom for quite some time. One of the pieces of
>>>>>> information Leader failed to mention was their change in ownership
>>>>>> policy. In August of 2007, I called Leader and spoke with Rod
>>>>>> Haneline about this apparent oversight. At that time, Mr. Haneline
>>>>>> advised me that the change in ownership policy was in response to
>>>>>> the negative attention the case of Craig Miller who kicked his
>>>>>> Leader Dog, Inky to death in a drunken rage had garnered. There are
>>>>>> a number of challenges to this explanation. One major challenge is
>>>>>> that, at the time of the incident, Mr. Miller had had his dog for
>>>>>> more than the two years the new ownership policy provided for. The
>>>>>> other major challenge is that there is no way to predict such
>>>>>> behavior and no restriction of ownership would
>>>>> have made a difference.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> During last year's meeting, the question about their ownership
>>>>> policy
>>>>>> was posed to Leader again and this was when the issue of obesity was
>>>>>> brought up. Though this sound like a reasonable explanation, no
>>>>>> objective evidence that an obesity problem exists has ever been
>>>>>> offered. Now the policy has been changed to one year because the
>>>>>> obesity rates have gone down. Still, no objective evidence has been
>>>>>> offered that there is a problem, in spite of the assertion that the
>>>>>> rates are lower. Though I would like to believe those who tender
>>>>>> such an argument have evidence to support their argument, as a
>>>>>> professional who relies upon research to guide my practice,I am
>>>>>> trained to be skeptical of unsupported claims. As of yet, I have
>>>>>> seen no evidence of an obesity problem among guide dogs. If there
>>>>>> was a problem and now the problem is less, let us see the pre-
>>>>>> post-study evidence! While we are at it, let's also see a
>>>>>> correlative study of those programs who transfer ownership and those
>>>>>> who do not so we can ascertain if there is a difference between the
>>>>>> two groups. Here is an interesting statistic I would like to share
>>>>>> with you to drive home the point: 87% of all statistics are made up
>>>>>> on the spot! Of course, that's a cynical
>>>>> statement, but I think you get the point!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>>>>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>> (813) 626-2789
>>>>>> (888) 624-3841 (Hotline)
>>>>>> President at nagdu.org
>>>>>> http://www.nagdu.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> High expectations create unlimited potential for the blind!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of William
>>>>>> Vandervest
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 10:56 AM
>>>>>> To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Fw: Attention: New Leader Dog Ownership Policy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are none so blind as those who will not see
>>>>>>
>>>>>> William and LD Lynard
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: Leader Dogs for the Blind
>>>>>> To: timelord09 at att.net
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 9:31 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Attention: New Leader Dog Ownership Policy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Graduate,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Leader Dogs for the Blind is announcing that effective
>>>>>> immediately we are reducing our transfer of ownership policy from
>>>>>> two years to one year
>>>>> for
>>>>>> our guide dog clients (with the exception of clients from Spain and
>>>>> Brazil,
>>>>>> who follow their local organization's procedures).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The previous policy that required clients to apply for ownership
>>>>> after
>>>>>> working with their dog for two years was put in place in 2007 to
>>>>>> address
>>>>> the
>>>>>> growing number of working Leader Dogs who were overweight or obese.
>>>>>> "The reason for the change is that over the past seven years, this
>>>>>> problem has diminished as our clients have become more proactive at
>>>>>> regulating their dogs' weight," said Will Henry, Leader Dog director
>>>>>> of
>>>> client services.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The new policy grants automatic ownership, without the need to
>>>>>> apply, to clients one year after their graduation date if they are
>>>>>> in good
>>>>> standing
>>>>>> (not on probation, and with no complaints on file).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Current clients (in good standing) who have had their Leader Dog
>>>>>> longer than one year will receive automatic ownership as of May 1,
>>>>>> 2014.
>>>>>> Clients (in good standing) who received their Leader Dog after May
>>>>>> 1,
>>>>>> 2013 will receive automatic ownership one year after their
>>>>>> graduation
>>>> date.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you have questions about the ownership of your Leader Dog,
>>>>>> please contact your client services coordinator at 888-777-5332.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>> Leader Dogs for the Blind
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You are receiving this message because you have shared your email
>>>>>> address with Leader Dogs for the Blind. To ensure that you continue
>>>>>> receiving our emails, please add us to your address book or safe
>>>>>> list.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Unsubscribe or manage your email preferences | Review our Privacy
>>>>>> Policy
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Leader Dogs for the Blind, 1039 S. Rochester Rd., Rochester Hills,
>>>>>> MI
>>>>> 48307
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Forward email
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> Leader Dogs for the Blind | 1039 S. Rochester Rd. |
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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