[nagdu] Why Not Ownership?

Ginger Kutsch GingerKutsch at yahoo.com
Mon May 5 15:18:54 UTC 2014


Marion,

You asked:

"...what advantage the policy of withholding transfer ownership of a guide
dog upon completion of training affords either party that is not afforded by
law and its due process."

I can think of two advantages.

One advantage   may be that by withholding ownership for the first year, the
school may offer its puppy raisers "first refusal" to adopt  should it
happen that, after going out with a blind person for a time,  the dog they
raised cannot cut it as a guide dog. This may be an important recruitment
tool for the school to interest and retain puppy raisers. As an aside, this
brings up the question as to whether or not it's reasonable for the blind
person to make the decision  about the dog's future when both the puppy
raiser and school have invested more time and resources into the dog than
the blind person. In other words, is it reasonable for the blind person who
has spent less than a year with the dog to have final say over the dog's
future?  

The second advantage is that if the dog cannot cut it as a guide dog within
the first year, the school can freely take the dog back and assess the dog's
suitability to be placed with another individual. My husband was
successfully matched with a dog that had already gone out with another blind
individual for just under a year. The previous owner graciously transferred
ownership of the dog back to the school so it could be placed with someone
else. There were family members who wanted the dog as a pet but fortunately
the graduate recognized the huge investment in the dog and chose to give it
back to the school despite having ownership. This is not always the case so
maintaining ownership of the dog would allow a school to have more control
over its investment.
       
Best,
Ginger
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marion Gwizdala
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2014 6:48 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: [nagdu] Why Not Ownership?

Craig,
	As long as we, the blind, see ourselves as recipients or, in a more
accurate term, beneficiaries, we will see ourselves as powerless, subject to
the whim of our benefactors. This attitude will lead us to believe that
those who were so gracious as to give us this wonderful dog, all this
outstanding training, room & board for 26 days, all the follow-up training
and advice, and any other value-aded benefits, have the right to treat us in
a way that is less than dignified. Our benefactors will believe they can
interfere in our lives, require us to submit our dog's medical records,
require we feed the dog the food they tell us, call us and demand to see our
dog in 10 minutes or less, and - should we resist, threaten to repossess our
dog because they have the right to do so at their sole and absolute
discretion. 

	Now, this may sound as if I am being irrational by engaging in
exaggeration; however, there are training programs who currently hold these
attitudes and practices. I will admit that GDB seems to treat their
consumers with dignity and fairness. The question still remains, though,
"Why not ownership?" The simple answer is they want the power. Again, the
primary question is "Why?" Are there not other ways in which they can
deliver services and retain the right, through third party objective
evidence and authority of law to ensure that the dog and the training
programs' rights are protected? The answer is rhetorical, as such measures
are in place!

	While on the subject of consumer vs. beneficiary, we must keep in
mind that the training programs use the blind to solicit funds on our
behalf. Each year these programs raise hundreds of millions of dollars
collectively to provide services to us. In doing so, they tell their donors
they give us this gift of these wonderful dogs, this awesome training, and,
in many cases, they even assert they give us dignity! The whole concept of
conferring dignity could take several pages, so let me just address the
"giving" concept, since the question of whether or not a guide dog confers
dignity is irrelevant to the discussion of ownership at hand. 

	When property is exchanged, whether it is purchased or given as a
gift, the ownership rights to the property are transferred to the recipient.
Once given, the giver has no claim upon the property, unless the property
were given in exchange for a promise of a future contractual obligation.
Only if the future contractual obligation is breached does the giver have a
right to repossess the property. The most common form of property given in
consideration of a future contractual obligation is the giving of an
engagement ring accepted in exchange for the promise to enter into the
contract of marriage. . Other such exchanges of property given in advance of
the fulfillment of a future obligation are signing bonuses and financing
agreements. If one does not begin working or does not pay the finance
company, the property exchanged prior to the breach of the contract must be
returned.

	Either guide dog ttraining programs believe blind people are capable
of caring for their dogs or they do not. If they do, they transfer ownership
upon completion of training. If they do not, they require the blind person
to prove the ability to do so during a probationary period or whatever
euphemism they employ to limit the dignity they assert they give us.
Apparently, we must prove we are worthy of the dignity they will bestow upon
us so graciously!

	The issue of ownership is not, as one writer seemed to imply, such a
minor issue it does not deserve the attention we  give it. In fact, it is
the most important issue we bring forward as it reflects the fundamental
belief of the National Federation of the Blind - the real problem of
blindness is not the blindness but the stereotypes that influence the way in
which society views us. The ownership issue is, therefore, a reflection of
the perspective of the training program and this perspective will guide
every policy, practice, and procedure of that program. If we are first-class
citizens who are capable of making our way in the world without the
paternalistic, custodial care of others; if we have the ability to bear and
raise our children; if we have the capacity to enter into a contractual
agreement; if we have all the rights and responsibilities of citizenship, wy
do we need to prove ourselves to a paternalistic training program? 

	No one has given me the answer to the basic question of what
advantage does withholding transfer ownership to the blind person afford
either party that is not provided for by law. The answer the correct answer
and the one the training programs will not give us is that such a practice
gives them the right to interfere in our lives without justification, cause,
or due process. The primary advantage ownership offers is the right to due
process and, therefore, the freedom from illegal interference. If guide dog
training programs would not, as they assert, repossess a dog without cause,
why are they unwilling to afford us the remedies of law? I believe there is
no other answer than the one I have tendered.

	I know this stand will garner a counterpoint discussion. In this
discussion, I would like to explore the answer to the fundamental question I
have posed. So, to be clear, I would like to know what advantage the policy
of withholding transfer ownership of a guide dog upon completion of training
affords either party that is not afforded by law and its due process. Simply
restating the arguments that we have the right to go elsewhere if we do not
like the policy or that the training program is giving us this wonderful dog
at no cost is not, in my mind, a sufficient response. Ownership is a legal
agreement and, if the discussion does not address the question, it is not
relevant. I look forward to reading replies! 

Fraternally yours,
Marion Gwizdala



-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Craig Heaps
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 4:27 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership

In fact, GDB did give me something for nothing in a very significant sense. 
Yes, I showed up prepared with my life experience, need for a vision aid,
and O&M skills.  But GDB did not charge me a dime for any of their services
or for Chase, himself.  He came with training, a harness, a starter supply
of food, poop bags, heartworm medicine, and flea medicine.  He came with the
so far fulfilled promise of ongoing support, both by phone and in person.

None of that was predicated on my ownership of Chase.

To some extent, how GDB made that possible is irrelevant to me.  Whether
they used an extraordinary endowment or ongoing contributions, the result
was the same for me.  I see myself much more as a recipient than a consumer.

Had I paid for GDB's services, I would consider myself a consumer.  But I
didn't.  They might call me a client.  But the nomenclature does not change
the substance of my relationship with them.  I am grateful for what they
gave me at no charge.

I have never felt treated as a second class citizen.  In fact, just the
opposite.  GDB was solicitous of my every need during my training and
beyond.  At every step, they treated me as if I were traveling first class
and paid first class rates.  As I read through the posts on this thread, I'm
coming to realize much of it has to do with perception.  As Eleanor
Roosevelt said, "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."  I
am not a victim.  No one has victimized me by withholding ownership of my
guide.  In fact, they have given me an enormous gift, one for which I am
extremely grateful.

Craig

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 12:02 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership


> Craig, One paradigm I think we need to shift is that the training 
> program is giving us something for nothing. Training programs solicit 
> funds from the general public as 501(c)(3) corporations. As such, they 
> are accountable to the public. Donors contribute to training programs 
> because this is a way they can better the lives of those they wish to 
> help, since they have no direct ability to do so otherwise. In short, 
> the training programs receive contributions from the public with the 
> expressed intention of using those funds to enhance our lives. If it 
> were not for the blind and their assertions they are helping us, where 
> would the 6-figure salaries of the CEOs and the less significant 
> salaries of the staff come from?
>
> As it true with any economy except that of a guide dog training 
> program and some other disabvility services, consumers satisfaction is 
> the driving force. Until we see ourselves as consumers with all the 
> power that term conveys, we will continue to be treated as second-class
citizens.
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion Gwizdala
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Craig Heaps
> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 12:24 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership
>
> Michael:
>
> I understand the points you're making, and certainly don't think it's 
> simply one way or the other.
>
> However, when the school accepted me, I also accpted the school.  I 
> went to GDB knowing the ownership policy.  I took all the things they 
> gave me for free, knowing it came with the stiuplation that I would 
> not own the dog for at least a year, if ever.
>
> I don't know of another situation other than service dogs where 
> someone hands over to you a highly trained, living, breathing being 
> for your benefit at no charge.  Then regularly comes to provide 
> extended instruction and guidance at my home or work place.  I find it 
> hard to complain about the conditions they put on that.
>
> I believe the schools have every right to withhold ownership of the 
> dogs for however long they choose.  I do not expect them to be 
> infallible in their screening or training.  And if they feel they need 
> to retain ownership for

> a
> time as a check on thier own fallibility, I'm ok with that.
>
> Perhaps I'm less sensitive to perceived paternalism.  My sense of 
> gratitude might have overwhelmed it.
>
> Craig
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Hingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 9:09 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership
>
>
>> Craig,
>>
>> I hear you, but the school did accept you and you accepted the school 
>> and its techniques.  You take a chance that all the processes and 
>> procedures of the school will work for you.  There is no guarantee in 
>> life.  We should be judged by the same criteria as others.
>>
>> The Leader Dog example is as graphic as it gets.  The claim is, they 
>> said, that they changed their policy simply because school management 
>> said it saw an increase in dog obesity.  So why does such an increase 
>> justify how they treat dog ownership by the handler?  The fact is 
>> that it does not.
>>
>> The schools always have recourse to remove a mistreated dog from an 
>> environment.  Animal control, the courts, and the law should apply 
>> here just as in any other case.  Why should schools have an advantage 
>> and an extra opportunity to intimidate?  Schools have misused a lack 
>> of ownership by handlers to intimidate them make no mistake.
>>
>> No, not granting immediate ownership is paternalistic.  If the 
>> schools train properly, if they do a thorough job of assessing the 
>> incoming student and later the team performance during training, and 
>> if the school personnel is confident in its own abilities to evaluate 
>> and if the staff has faith in blind people then granting ownership 
>> immediately is a no brainer.
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>>
>> Michael Hingson
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Craig 
>> Heaps
>> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 08:49 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership
>>
>> I confess I see it differently.  The guide dogs schools have invested 
>> tens of thousands of dollars into breeding and training the dogs.  I 
>> don't know how the others work, but GDB provided free room and board 
>> for two weeks to me, trained me for free, and provided my dog for 
>> free for my use when I graduated.  So, while I have an obviours stake 
>> in the dog and my relationship with him (or her), the school has an 
>> incredible responsibility for the dog.
>>
>> They accepted me on the basis of an applicaton and a home interview.
>> While
>> I'm sure they did their due diligence, there's no way they could know 
>> my ultimate success or failure wiht a dog in that process plus the 
>> two weeks I spent with them for training.  If I should prove to be 
>> any one of a number of things --  incompetent, negligent, cruel, 
>> psychotic, neurotic, probiotic (sorry, I got caught up in the rythm 
>> of the thing) -- what recourse would they have to rescue the dog from 
>> me?
>>
>> GDB allows me to apply for owership after a year.  I'm a couple 
>> months away from that anniversary and I don't know what I'll do.  It 
>> really makes no difference to me.  I'm holding Chase's harness handle 
>> every day.  I buy his food and feed him.  I buy the plastic bags and 
>> pick up after him.  He sleeps next to my bed.  In real, practical 
>> terms, I don't see what difference it makes.
>>
>> I tend to think of it as responsible rather than paternalistic on the 
>> part of the school.
>>
>> Craig and Chase (who technically belongs to Guide Dogs for the Blind)
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 6:31 AM
>> Subject: [nagdu] On Ownership
>>
>>
>>> It is my opinion that the failure to grant ownership upon completion 
>>> of training is founded in the underlying belief that blind people 
>>> are incapable of caring for a dog and must prove their ability to do 
>>> so before they are afforded this fundamental right! No matter how it 
>>> is couched, such a policy is paternalistic!
>>>
>>> Fraternally yours,
>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 9:30 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Attention: New Leader Dog Ownership Policy
>>>
>>> Well, it does have to do with ownership policy. The implemented it 
>>> because guide dogs were obese; they lowered it because blind 
>>> graduates were starting to do better because the obesity rate is 
>>> down. Do you think the obesity rate in dogs should have anything to 
>>> do with ownership? What I was saying is, if you have to wait one 
>>> minute for that reason, then it seems you are being treated as if 
>>> you are not capable of good judgment. My point was that people with 
>>> pets don't have to wait a year or two to see if their dogs are going 
>>> to be obese or not.
>>>
>>> Cindy
>>>
>>> On May 1, 2014, at 7:37 PM, Nicole Torcolini 
>>> <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> No, I don't think that ownership is the way to solve the problem, 
>>>> but, if you looked at the average life expectancy  of the breeds 
>>>> that are used as guide/service dogs for pet versus service/guide 
>>>> dog, you would probably find that, between a higher level of 
>>>> physical activity, more attention to weight, and more attention to 
>>>> health in general, service/guide dogs live longer than pets. And 
>>>> yes, being obese is bad for the health of a dog. Obesity is a 
>>>> slightly different problem in dogs than in humans. Humans know that 
>>>> we are going to get our next meal. Even though dogs have been 
>>>> domesticated for a long time, they still go on the instinct that 
>>>> they don't know when their next meal will be and therefore eat 
>>>> anything you put in front of them to the point of even making 
>>>> themselves sick. But, back to my original point, no,
>>> this is not something that has anything to do with an ownership policy.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy 
>>>> Ray
>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 5:23 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Attention: New Leader Dog Ownership Policy
>>>>
>>>> Think about it. How many pet dogs are obese? You must know that 
>>>> lots of them are because people over feed the dogs-table scraps, 
>>>> ice cream, whipped cream, whatever. So I ask you, how many pet dogs are
obese?
>>>> Probably they suffer the same problem as people. Many of us are 
>>>> over fed,
>>> too.
>>>>
>>>> Cindy
>>>>
>>>> On May 1, 2014, at 7:12 PM, Nicole Torcolini 
>>>> <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I don't quite understand what you meant. Are you saying that a lot 
>>>>> of pet dogs are obese or not many are obese?
>>>>>
>>>>> Nicole
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy 
>>>>> Ray
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 2:16 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: Attention: New Leader Dog Ownership 
>>>>> Policy
>>>>>
>>>>> I think this is laughable. How many pet dogs are obese? Isn't it 
>>>>> as unhealthy for them? Their owners aren't required to wait two 
>>>>> years before applying for ownership of the dog.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cindy Lou
>>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 30, 2014, at 4:06 PM, Marion Gwizdala 
>>>>> <blind411 at verizon.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>> I would like to comment on this message as president of the 
>>>>>> National
>>>>>
>>>>>> Association of Guide Dog Users. As this message states, Leader 
>>>>>> Dogs for the Blind changed its ownership policy around April of 
>>>>>> 2007. In July of that year, I presided at my first NAGDU annual 
>>>>>> meeting as Vice President of the organization. During our 
>>>>>> meetings, Leader was provided an opportunity to share an update 
>>>>>> with our membership, as has been our custom for quite some time. 
>>>>>> One of the pieces of information Leader failed to mention was 
>>>>>> their change in ownership policy. In August of 2007, I called 
>>>>>> Leader and spoke with Rod Haneline about this apparent oversight. 
>>>>>> At that time, Mr. Haneline advised me that the change in 
>>>>>> ownership policy was in response to the negative attention the 
>>>>>> case of Craig Miller who kicked his Leader Dog, Inky to death in 
>>>>>> a drunken rage had garnered. There are a number of challenges to 
>>>>>> this explanation. One major challenge is that, at the time of the 
>>>>>> incident, Mr. Miller had had his dog for more than the two years 
>>>>>> the new ownership policy provided for. The other major challenge 
>>>>>> is that there is no way to predict such behavior and no 
>>>>>> restriction of ownership would
>>>>> have made a difference.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> During last year's meeting, the question about their ownership
>>>>> policy
>>>>>> was posed to Leader again and this was when the issue of obesity 
>>>>>> was brought up. Though this sound like a reasonable explanation, 
>>>>>> no objective evidence that an obesity problem exists has ever 
>>>>>> been offered. Now the policy has been changed to one year because 
>>>>>> the obesity rates have gone down. Still, no objective evidence 
>>>>>> has been offered that there is a problem, in spite of the 
>>>>>> assertion that the rates are lower. Though I would like to 
>>>>>> believe those who tender such an argument have evidence to 
>>>>>> support their argument, as a professional who relies upon 
>>>>>> research to guide my practice,I am trained to be skeptical of 
>>>>>> unsupported claims. As of yet, I have seen no evidence of an 
>>>>>> obesity problem among guide dogs. If there was a problem and now 
>>>>>> the problem is less, let us see the pre- post-study evidence! 
>>>>>> While we are at it, let's also see a correlative study of those 
>>>>>> programs who transfer ownership and those who do not so we can 
>>>>>> ascertain if there is a difference between the two groups. Here 
>>>>>> is an interesting statistic I would like to share with you to 
>>>>>> drive home the point: 87% of all statistics are made up on the 
>>>>>> spot! Of course, that's a cynical
>>>>> statement, but I think you get the point!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>>>>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>> (813) 626-2789
>>>>>> (888) 624-3841 (Hotline)
>>>>>> President at nagdu.org
>>>>>> http://www.nagdu.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> High expectations create unlimited potential for the blind!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
>>>>>> William Vandervest
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 10:56 AM
>>>>>> To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Fw: Attention: New Leader Dog Ownership Policy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are none so blind as those who will not see
>>>>>>
>>>>>> William and LD Lynard
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: Leader Dogs for the Blind
>>>>>> To: timelord09 at att.net
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 9:31 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Attention: New Leader Dog Ownership Policy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Graduate,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Leader Dogs for the Blind is announcing that effective 
>>>>>> immediately we are reducing our transfer of ownership policy from 
>>>>>> two years to one year
>>>>> for
>>>>>> our guide dog clients (with the exception of clients from Spain 
>>>>>> and
>>>>> Brazil,
>>>>>> who follow their local organization's procedures).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    The previous policy that required clients to apply for 
>>>>>> ownership
>>>>> after
>>>>>> working with their dog for two years was put in place in 2007 to 
>>>>>> address
>>>>> the
>>>>>> growing number of working Leader Dogs who were overweight or obese.
>>>>>> "The reason for the change is that over the past seven years, 
>>>>>> this problem has diminished as our clients have become more 
>>>>>> proactive at regulating their dogs' weight," said Will Henry, 
>>>>>> Leader Dog director of
>>>> client services.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    The new policy grants automatic ownership, without the need to 
>>>>>> apply, to clients one year after their graduation date if they 
>>>>>> are in good
>>>>> standing
>>>>>> (not on probation, and with no complaints on file).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Current clients (in good standing) who have had their Leader 
>>>>>> Dog longer than one year will receive automatic ownership as of 
>>>>>> May 1, 2014.
>>>>>> Clients (in good standing) who received their Leader Dog after 
>>>>>> May 1,
>>>>>> 2013 will receive automatic ownership one year after their 
>>>>>> graduation
>>>> date.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    If you have questions about the ownership of your Leader Dog, 
>>>>>> please contact your client services coordinator at 888-777-5332.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Sincerely,
>>>>>>    Leader Dogs for the Blind
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You are receiving this message because you have shared your email 
>>>>>> address with Leader Dogs for the Blind. To ensure that you 
>>>>>> continue receiving our emails, please add us to your address book 
>>>>>> or safe list.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Unsubscribe or manage your email preferences | Review our Privacy 
>>>>>> Policy
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Leader Dogs for the Blind, 1039 S. Rochester Rd., Rochester 
>>>>>> Hills, MI
>>>>> 48307
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>          Forward email
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>          Leader Dogs for the Blind | 1039 S. Rochester Rd. | 
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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