[nagdu] On Ownership
Darla Rogers
djrogers0628 at gmail.com
Thu May 8 23:35:33 UTC 2014
A leased car is covered under your auto insurance; if not, they charge a
fortune for insurance, so it is better, if you have it to be covered under
your own policy.
While guide dogs are property, as Marion points out, one hand it
should give us more rights, but animal control still can have a lot of
power when it comes to a dog it is believed is being abused.
Someone I know has a retired guide who is thinner than would be healthy for
a working dog, and animal control came visiting on evening to see her
and her retired guide; they tried to give her a rough time, but she did
prevail.
To me, if you can't screen for most possible scenarios, then you
have an issue with your program, namely your view of blind people.
I personally won't go to a training program again who doesn't grant
unconditional ownership; we are in the 21st century; presumably the people
who run these programs know something of blind people, but some of the
ownership agreements seem to indicate otherwise.
Darla & Happy Huck
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Star Gazer
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2014 7:25 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership
Actually leasing cars has many provisions, about how many miles you can
drive them. Also I think if you get into an accident with a leased vehicle,
the owners will make your life very very difficult.
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole Torcolini
Sent: Sunday, May 4, 2014 1:36 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership
Barb,
I agree with most of your points except for the idea of the school
maintaining ownership to see if things work out. The terms under which a
school takes a dog back should always be the same, not different for some
probation period at the beginning. Even if the school does maintain
ownership of the dog, this should not give the school more power to take the
dog back. This is kind of different, but when was the last time that you
purchased an appliance, and the paperwork in the box said:
"Even though you have purchased this appliance, for the first year, it does
not actually belong to you. If the company decides that you do not know how
to use the appliance or that it just is not right for you, the company will
come take it away."
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
barbandzoe at comcast.net
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 8:58 AM
To: Name, Full
Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership
Hi everyone.
I have been reading most all of the posts and find it interesting to see the
different views.
I fall some where in the middle. I don't have a problem with a school
waiting a bit before they give you ownership of their dog. they want to see
if the both of you make a good team, and if this is working out. And if you
are caring for the dog the right way. I see many sighted people who have
these big beautiful dogs and they don't walk them, play or interact with
them. that is why so many end up in shelters. If you are letting your dog
get fat, that is not good for the working dog. that means he isn't getting
enough walking, or he is being over fed, or has a medical issue.
I keep reading that some are saying that schools treat us blind people like
we don't know how to care for a dog, they gave you a dog to care for, and if
you don't care for it right, then they take it back, if animal shelters
checked up on the animals they adopted out, they would be taking them back
to. I don't understand why a guide dog school would want to keep reclaiming
dogs, it doesn't sound like something in their best interest, so I would
think they do what ever they can to not let that happen.
I feel that when the dog is to retire, you should have the option to keep
him or not. However if you are going to get another dog, it is a lot of
money to feed and vet care and walk and make time for two big dogs. That
isn't always an option for everyone. As much has I would love my old dog, if
I was going to get another one, I don't think I could a ford to keep two
dogs. I would be heart broke, but that is something we know going into this,
is that one day you will have to let your buddy go.
I kinda think of getting guide dog like when mom and dad give the 16 year
old kid their first car. If you get a ticket the car goes, if you be stupid
and have 10 kids in the car, gone. You buy the gas and if you can't pay for
it you don't go. If you want to be driving like an idiot, get your own car
and your own insurance.
If you really don't want anyone to tell you what to do with your dog, buy
your own puppy and pay someone to train it. then you will have total
ownership and control of that dog.
I don't see anything wrong with a back ground check. If they find you have
been dealing with drugs or beat your wife, a drunker, I feel they have the
right to say no or maybe later. Ask someone who tries to adopt a kid, they
jump through all kinds of checks and interviews.
Barb
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alysha" <alyshaj at comcast.net>
To: "Name, Full" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2014 5:56:03 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership
Hi all,
I haven't been on this list for a while, but I recently re-joined and
couldn't resist throwing in on this debate. :) I absolutely, 100%, think
that we should own our dogs after graduating from a school's training
program. I also absolutely, 100%, think that both criminal background checks
and credit checks should be part of the application process. After all, we
aren't just receiving a service from these programs. We're receiving a
living, breathing being. I can't imagine having to give my dog to a
stranger, but if for some horrible reason I did, I would want to know that
they were a good person with the financial stability to properly care for
him. Many dog rescue organizations require detailed home interviews,
criminal background checks, vet references, and proof of income before they
will allow someone to adopt one of their dogs. Why should we be held to
lesser standards? I would think that training programs should be just as
serious about where they place the highly trained dogs they have spent so
much money, time, and effort to prepare for guiding as the organizations
trying to place pet dogs. When I applied for my dog as a college student, I
remember the application focusing a great deal on my O&M skills without
touching on how I intended to pay for the dog's care without an income, how
I would keep a dog safe and happy in a dorm environment, my knowledge of
local veterinarians, etc. These are all questions I would ask if I was
running a training program. I think I did a pretty good job with my dog, but
there are others who may not have done so in that situation. I think
sometimes we get so caught up in defending our personal rights that we
forget the dog's "rights" have a huge part to play in the debate as well.
After I bring a dog home, I strongly feel I should be the sole person making
decisions regarding his health, life, and well-being with the possible
exception of a situation where the school is still financially supporting
the dog's vet care, food, etc. If I am proven to be incapable of this or at
all abusive, then the dog should be removed from my care just as a pet dog
can be removed from someone's home in those circumstances. If this happened,
I would hope no training program would trust another guide to my care for
quite some time if ever.
I've encountered many handlers over the years who are responsible and
wonderful with their dogs. But unfortunately, I've encountered just as many
who have no discipline, no control, and no common sense when it comes to the
appropriate way to care for their dog. The schools are using these examples
as excuses for their unwillingness to grant ownership, completely ignoring
the fact that the schools accepted these people to begin with. So I think
the best solution is stricter application criteria along with full
ownership.
Whatever you want to call people who attend training programs (clients,
consumers, etc.), the bottom line is that we are receiving something for
nothing. When an organization spends a great deal of time and money to train
a dog and then gives that dog away for free or for a small fee, that is the
definition of charity. Most of us do not have the time or expertise to train
a guide from puppyhood for ourselves, so we rely on the schools to provide
this service. The work my school did in training my guide is something I am
personally quite grateful for. But I do not feel that having gratitude
toward the school makes me a lesser human being or unworthy of expressing my
opinions (don't get me started on the whole guide dog = dignity line!). I'm
not convinced it is our right to own these dogs, but I do know that it is
mandatory for me personally. Luckily, there are several good programs across
the nation to choose from, and those of us who feel that ownership is a must
will continue to support the schools who share this philosophy. No one is
being forced to attend a specific school. So if this issue of ownership is
important to enough people, hopefully it will become apparent by the
programs that people are choosing to attend.
Anyway, sorry for writing a novel!
Alysha
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of sheila
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2014 5:23 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership
I am not in favor of background checks of any kind. It doesn't seem
reasonable that we need more regulations to prove that we are able to be
responsible citizens especially in regards to receiving services intended to
be used to enhance our lives as blind persons when other consumers aren't
subjected to this stuffff.
On 5/3/2014 5:27 AM, Marion Gwizdala wrote:
> I would also assert that a criminal background check should not be the
only information used to arrive at a decision. The information gleaned
should be used in perspective and other mitigating or aggravating
information should be considered. I don't know if I am in favor of
background checks of any kind.
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Star Gazer
> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 8:53 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership
>
> I was only suggesting that a criminal background check is not the only
> check worth doing
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On May 2, 2014, at 6:36 PM, Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I'm kind of confused about criminal checks leading to financial ones.
Maybe it is because I didn't read Rebecca's message?
>>
>> Cindy
>>
>>> On May 2, 2014, at 3:02 PM, Daryl Marie <crazymusician at shaw.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>> But then how far would those financial checks go? Even though Jenny
>>> is
my responsibility, I am married to someone who historically has had credit
problems. Would a guide dog school checking in to my financial background
also breach his confidentiality and deny me the chance to train with a dog
because of it? Does that seem fair?
>>>
>>> Daryl and Jenny (who is a little on edge today)
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Star Gazer <pickrellrebecca at gmail.com>
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Fri, 02 May 2014 13:47:33 -0600 (MDT)
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership
>>>
>>> Criminal background checks only "get" people who have found heir way
>>> into the criminal justice system. Many many people commit crimes and
>>> are not caught. And, an arrest means absolutely nothing.
>>> I wonder if the schools also do finantial background checks as
>>> finantial stress can make people act in ways they normally wouldn't.
>>> Not to say that a person under finantial stress would or wouldn't
>>> abuse a dog, just that criminal background checks aren't the only
>>> background checks in town, and may not give a full picture.
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie J.
>>> Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 1:49 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership
>>>
>>> Do any of the programs do criminal background checks? What about the
>>> references? Is a reference letter submitted or are these people
>>> called and asked questions?
>>>
>>> I feel that the programs should use whatever means necessary to
>>> assess the suitability of a particular person to have a dog and then
>>> let them have the dog. If there is some concern that the person
>>> won't properly take care of the dog, then that person shouldn't get
>>> one. Once the person has the dog, it's too late to prevent abuse or
>>> neglect. Ownership or no ownership isn't
>>>
>>> going to change the condition of the dog.
>>>
>>> The only way that ownership can influence how people act toward
>>> their dog is if it's used as a threat. If you don't do what we say,
>>> then we'll repossess your dog. the thing with this approach is that
>>> it only works on folks who would have taken proper care of the dog
regardless of the ownership policy.
>>> People who do bad things are going to do bad things regardless of
>>> the
rules.
>>>
>>> An ownership policy isn't going to prevent abuse, any more than
>>> domestic abuse laws stop spouses from hitting each other. People who
>>> don't commit abuse don't do it because of a law, they are non
>>> abusers because they feel it's the right way to act.
>>>
>>> I'd really like to know what the actual reason is for the various
>>> schools ownership policies. I've heard obesity, abuse, better follow
>>> up, being able to place the dog after retirement, better service and
>>> all other manner of nonsense. It doesn't make any sense to me. How
>>> does the ownership policy affect the school's ability to provide
>>> good service? It smells like an excuse to me.
>>>
>>> It would be interesting to see solid statistics comparing things
>>> like obesity rates, abuse, time between a follow up request and the
>>> provision of service and overall success rates between programs that
>>> retain ownership and those that don't. My hunch is that there is no
>>> correlation between ownership and these items. I think the better
>>> indicator is the quality of the applicant screening process, and the
>>> quality of the training at the program
>>>
>>> Julie
>>>
>>>
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