[nagdu] when dogs are working?

Wed Oct 1 22:03:07 UTC 2014

+1 and highly agree with all of your points.

On 10/1/14, Ann Edie via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Hi, Abby and Everyone,
>
> I agree with others who have stated that the dog does not have to be
> wearing
> a harness in order to be considered a service dog under the ADA. However, I
> also agree that the law does insist that the dog be on leash and under the
> control of the handler at all times, unless the dog's work requires that it
> be off leash, which guide work obviously does not.  So, while it is
> perfectly all right for you to remove your dog's harness while in the group
> "safe" room and let the dog rest and relax, in my opinion (and it seems the
> law would imply this, also) you have no right under the law to allow your
> dog to roam about in a public place (which the room on the college campus
> is), no matter whether or not you believe that your dog is under your
> verbal
> control at all times .  The law requires that places of public
> accommodation
> modify their "no pets" policies in order to permit persons who have
> disabilities to gain access to the places and services they provide
> accompanied by their service animals.  The law does not require the
> management to modify other policies, such as to permit you to let your dog
> romp and play, seek attention from other persons, or interact with other
> service animals in the facility.
>
> How often have we read on these lists the complaints of guide dog handlers
> that their guide dogs have been attacked or interfered with by other
> service
> dogs (or pets being fraudulently claimed as service dogs) while in places
> of
> public accommodation?  No matter how well-behaved and friendly my service
> animal may be, and no matter how well-behaved and friendly all the other
> service dogs are (or how friendly their handlers think they are), I think
> you may be courting trouble by allowing your service dog to behave as if
> this room were your private dwelling. You never know when one animal may
> decide that it has been offended by something another animal has done and
> might retaliate before either you or the other animal's handler has time to
> react to separate the two of them. I think the college has the right to
> protect itself from a lawsuit claiming that it permitted dogs to run loose
> within the facility and injure another animal or person. Secondly, no
> matter
> whether all the other members of the group have agreed that it would be
> fine
> for you to allow your dog to go free in the room, there may be some people
> who feel pressured by the group not to express that they might not really
> want to be licked by your dog or may not want the smell of dog on their new
> clothes or may not really want dog hair on the suit that they are about to
> wear to a job interview or to defend their thesis or whatever. In other
> words, the right to be accompanied by a service animal does not mean that
> you have the right to use the space as if it were your private living
> quarters. You may be on a break, but your dog is still working. It is in
> that space only to afford you access to the college. Yes, it can be
> resting;
> and yes, you can take off the harness without causing it to lose its status
> as a service animal. But I think that's about as far as it goes.
>
> Also, I would advise you to be careful not to be too influenced by
> non-guide-dog-handlers' opinions about how you should treat your dog or
> what
> you should or should not allow your dog to do. Many things that people
> think
> you should let your dog do might not be in the best interest of the dog or
> the working team. For example, your friends think that since you are
> relaxing in the room, that your dog should be allowed to relax as well.
> Following this same line of thought, they might see you eating some nice
> snack, like ice cream or a burger, and they might think you are mean for
> not
> sharing your snack with the dog, which is probably staring at the food in a
> most piteous way, according to the well-meaning observer. Even if we
> explain
> why we might do things differently than the other person might choose to do
> with their pet dog, the person might still feel that we are being unfair,
> and might even try to win the dog's favor by sneaking it a morsel now and
> then when they think we're not paying attention. I think it is important to
> maintain good discipline and keep the line clear between the working
> service
> dog and a pet or group mascott.
>
> Personally, although I am a dog lover, I would not want to be confronted
> with someone else's loose guide dog in the student center of the college or
> in the cafeteria of my school or place of business, even if the dog were
> friendly and "well behaved" by pet standards, especially if I were
> accompanied by my own service animal at the time. I remember reading of a
> situation where a large service dog grabbed and seriously injured a tiny
> service dog during a public event to which both service dog handlers were
> invited and where both dogs were "under the control of their handlers."
> This
> situation was tragic, to say the least.
>
> Aside from all of the above, it seems to me that it would be very risky to
> permit the dog to behave as would a pet in this place, because the dog
> might
> very easily get the idea that it is okay to seek attention and to greet
> other people and animals in other places and at other times when you may
> need the dog to be focused on its work. In my experience, guide dog
> training
> programs instruct their students to provide their dogs with adequate rest,
> social time, and play time in their own homes or in other safe and
> non-public places, such as the fenced yard of their own home or a friend's
> home, or perhaps in a place where pet dogs are permitted, such as some
> parks
> or dog parks, but not on the streets or in places of public accommodation
> where pets are not permitted. I think there is good reason for this policy.
>
> I don't see any harm in situations such as that described by Julie J.,
> where
> she takes the harness and leash off of her guide dog in her office where
> the
> dog has a resting place under the desk. This is presumably a confined space
> which is either solely Julie's work space, or perhaps a space shared with
> only a couple of other people, and the dog does not get up and wander
> outside of the office or go and socialize with other people. Although I
> have
> always kept my service animals on leash in these circumstances, I can see
> where this might be a personal choice, as long as the other employees or
> the
> employer do not object. But I don't think the employer is obligated under
> the ADA to permit off-leash dogs within the facility, whether the dogs are
> service dogs or not, unless it is a service dog which needs to be off-leash
> in order to perform the tasks for which it is trained.
>
> I also agree with Marion's assertion (from past discussions on this topic)
> that he does not have to have his guide dog in harness in order to be
> granted access to a beach where there is a "no dogs" policy.  But I
> disagree
> with him, if I have understood his position correctly, that it is okay for
> him, once on the beach, to permit his guide dog to run loose, off leash, to
> dig, swim, play, and perhaps interfere with the enjoyment of the facility
> by
> other people.  If I think my service animal needs this type of exercise, I
> think I should take it to a place where pets are permitted, since the
> purpose of that trip would be to allow the animal to exercise and recreate,
> rather than for me, as a person with a disability, to gain access to the
> beach to get exercise and recreation for myself, or with my family, or my
> friends. While I might, or might not, take the harness off my service
> animal
> while we were on the beach in order to make it easier for the animal to
> rest
> comfortably, I would keep it on leash. I would provide a shady, clean place
> for my animal to rest and would either be holding the leash, or attach the
> leash to a stationary object such as a picnic table or a tree, or leave the
> animal in the control of a member of my party whom I could trust, while I
> entered the water to swim or play. If, however, I wanted to take a nice,
> long walk along the beach, I would definitely do this guided by my guide
> animal in harness. Again, while I think it's fine to take a service dog to
> a
> campground or hiking trail where pets are permitted and let the service dog
> run off-leash, if you think the benefits outweigh the risks to your animal,
> I do not think one should let a service animal run loose in such places if
> there is a "no pets" policy, while one uses some other mobility technique
> to
> walk the trails or get around the campground, as some guide dog users have
> said they do, no matter how "in control" they think their dogs are. And I
> don't read anything in the ADA that would imply that the management of any
> such facility has to permit such behavior.  If we permit our service
> animals
> to be off-leash in public places where pets are not permitted, I believe we
> would be taking unfair advantage of the other patrons and of the business
> management and their ignorance of their rights under the ADA.
>
> The above is, as always, my considered opinion, and nothing more or less. I
> apologize if I have misrepresented the views of any others who have
> participated in the discussion. There is certainly room for differing
> opinions and choices within the law and in real life circumstances.
>
> Thanks for the interesting question and for all the thoughtful replies.
>
> Best,
> Ann with Panda
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Abigail Bolling
> via nagdu
> Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2014 7:04 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: [nagdu] when dogs are working?
>
> hey all!
>
> So I recently started hanging out with a group of students called the
> rainbow alliance on campus.
> Being a student organization, we have a room in the student union which is
> considered a "safe space" where we can relax and be ourselves.
> h=The alliance has made it clear to me that if I am on break, then,
> obviously by decision but my dog should get some down time too. I agree
> completely. my dog is easy to control off leash and harness. They are
> completely comfortable with me taking my dog out of harness and all of the
> people who hang out in the room love dogs. There are at least 3 other
> people
> with service dogs who frequent that room, so it is nothing new to have a
> pup
> running around greeting people.
>
> Today, we had an advisor come in the room and tell us that our dogs are not
> considered service animals if they are not in their full working gear.
> My question is what should I do about this situation?
> Should I fill out an incident report and have this advisor informed about
> the laws and regulations about service dogs, or is he correct?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Abby and Puppy Jada
>
> Abigail Bolling
> Wright State University: Social Work
>
> "Keep a smile on your face and  a song in your heart, and just let the
> music
> play." (Julie Anderson-Diamond)
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