[nagdu] guide Dogs' exposure to children WAS Worst day of my life
Daryl Marie
crazymusician at shaw.ca
Thu Oct 9 18:53:21 UTC 2014
Let me first-off say that, no matter what happened and why, Barry, I am so sorry that you are dealing with the loss of your dog, and the associated fear that you are experiencing right now.
Valerie,
I can't speak for all schools, but BC/AB Guide Dogs makes sure that their dogs can itneract safely with children, adults, other dogs, etc. Yes, some dogs will have dog distractions, but any show of aggression would wash them out of the program.
Jenny's litter had five dogs in it, including Jenny. Four of the five dogs are working guides. The fifth was edgy around children, and it was decided to remove her from the program. No matter what, dogs will have to at the very least be socialized around children, as no matter who you are, you are likely to come in contact with children frequently. I have close friends with kids, but even when lives get busy and we don't see them much, at least once a week I have kids on the bus yelling "Doggie!" to their parents.
I do agree that dogs need to be supervised around children. I have friends with small kids, and I am always surprised at how calm jenny is with them. Sure, they'll run around and chase each other, but she plays gently when she comes in contact with them. With adults she knows she can play a bit harder, but we have clearly defined boundaries with what is acceptable and whta isn't (for example, she jumps up for a toy, toy gets put away, and playtime's done; she knows exactly what she's done, goes to her bed, and much later we will initialize play).
Jenny is mildly distracted by babies and small children. By distracted, she will calmly and gently take me over to any stroller on a bus, and air-sniffs if we're in proximity to a stroller in an elevator, for example. She is so calm that no one has ever complained to me about her behavior. I would, ideally, like her to ignore strollers, but in that absence, this is a sweet quirk I can tolerate.
Just yesterday, a coworker who is on paternity leave brought his 11-month-old son with him to a conference call/company meeting. Jenny completely ignored the baby, even while he was crawling toward her at least three times. She wagged her tail maniacally when we met up with them in the hall, but was otherwise calm. Later, with my coworker present and both of us supervising, we slowly introduced Jenny and the baby to each other. Jenny stayed on her bed and let the baby come to her, and it was a very very sweet moment.
I agree that there are no easy answers to this particular situation. We can ask the questions, some of which may have answers... but at this point, all have suffered: Barry, the dog, the little boy, his parent(s), any other family members who are close to those involved. My heart breaks for them on many levels.
Daryl
----- Original Message -----
From: Valerie Gibson via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thu, 09 Oct 2014 11:59:01 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Worst day of my life
Hi,
There are so many unanswerd questions before any of us can really give any sort of feedback.
1. Has the dog ben around the grandson before, or was this just an, out of the blue, attack?
2. Might the grandson have done something to provoke the dog without the handler's knowledge?
3. What was the relationship between the dog and handler? Did the dog feel as if the terrritory was "his", rather than the other dog or child's?
4. How old is the dog?
5. Did this dog have a history of violence with dogs on the job or just at home?
6. this kind of goes back to question 1, but has the dog had any history of being around children?
Until those question are answered, we may never know why the dog attacked another dog, and then a child.
That being said, I'd like to comment on a few things mentiond here.
First, just because a dog has a history of violence with other dogs does not mean he will have a history of violence with children. Some akitas are that way. They don't like other dogs, but put them around a child and their whole disposition changes.
Second, No child should be left unsupoerfized with a dog, and I hate to say it, but being blind, you need to have a handle on your dog, or put the dog away when a toddler is nearby. You don't know what the toddler might have done to upset the dog. Some times, crying is enough. When the child is old enough to listen to your instruction, then you can, think, about giving the child and dog a little more freedom.
Some dogs are okay with children crawling on them, but that's if the dog ses the children as part of their pack, and if that dog knows that that child is under the protection of the leader of such pack. And we don't know how the dog saw that child in regards to him home and his handler.
I am, by no means, excusing a dog bite, but as I've stated, there's still a lot we don't know.
Third, and probably the most important thing, a guide dog, is still a dog. I know we all say we know this, but when things like that happen, why is it so shocking? Dogs have attacked children in the past. The fact that it's a guide dog should have no bearing on the situation accept maybe to add more probablility that the dog, might, have been socilized with children around it's puppy raisers, and even then, some dogs just get it in their heads that this small screaming thing sounds like prey. Any animal, no matter how trained or cuddley or whatever, will bite. Dogs are predatory, and I think a lot of us forget that when their curled up at our feet or giving us kisses.
This leads me to four, I don't think there would be an yharm in getting a new guide dog, but if this gentleman does, I'd recommend highly that he introduce the grandson to the guide dog.
A post can be written on how to introduce dogs to children later if needed.
Second, if there is a fight between a guide dog and another dog, the trainer of said guide dog needs to be notafied immediately. Dog fights put a huge step back in dog training, not to mention that you could be hurt in the process.
I don't know if it's possible, and you guys from schools can answer this, but can you tell a guide dog rep the sort of people you and the dog will be exposed to? Like, could you tell the school that you have children, and could they make sure to match you with a dog who grew up around children?
I think that would help a lot.
Last thought, if you are scared of getting a new guide dog because you think something like this might happen again, don't do it. The dog will know that fear, and when the child is around, it could see your fear as the fear of the child rather than fear of what the guide dog might do to the child, and therefore attack the child.
Those are my thoughts.
On Oct 9, 2014, at 11:01 AM, Cindy Ray via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> I am not the moderator of this list of course, but Rebecca, I think it is
> important that we not just go on about what should have been done. These
> people are in pain, a baby was hurt, we don't know what "got rid of the dog"
> means, and on and on. We need to show compassion on this list when our
> fellow guide dog users are in pain. Please do that.
>
> Cindy
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Star Gazer via
> nagdu
> Sent: Thursday, October 9, 2014 11:39 AM
> To: 'Aleeha Dudley'; 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide
> Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Worst day of my life
>
> It won't, though if it had been me, I'd have done a
> few things differently.
> First, I'd not "get rid" of a dog that wasn't aggressive in favor of one
> that was. I especially wouldn't do it if the nonaggressive dog wasn't mine.
> I might keep both dogs assuming that I could keep them separate at all
> times. I'd also never let the aggressive dog near a baby.
> All this being said, I do wonder if school ownership hurt Barry in this
> case. If the dog was legally his, he could have done whatever it was he was
> going to do without school input. I'm concerned that he asked the school
> what to do after his grandson was mauled, he didn't tell them. I'm also
> concerned with the level of support he got when his dog attacked his son's
> dog. Barry mentions "started attacking" so this was an ongoing problem. It
> wasn't just a terrible day that came out of nowhere.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Aleeha Dudley [mailto:blindcowgirl1993 at gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, October 9, 2014 12:17 PM
> To: Star Gazer; NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users
> Cc: Barry Vaughn
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Worst day of my life
>
> Let's not play the blame game here. Something horribly tragic happened,
> what's done is done, sitting here and processing why everything happened the
> way it did will not help. The point is that a dog, a guide dog, a dog that
> this gentleman relies on for his mobility, and a dog he has developed a
> significant partnership with, attacked his own grandson. He'sgot to be going
> through a lot of rough emotions right now. Yelling at him for decisions he
> made will not help the situation.
>
> Aleeha Dudley and seeing eye dog Dallas Vice President, Ohio Association of
> blind students Blindcowgirl1993 at gmail.com "The wind of Heaven is that which
> blows between a horse's ears." Arabian proverb
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Oct 9, 2014, at 12:13 PM, Star Gazer via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Why did you get rid of the other dog when yours was the
>> aggressor? And, why did you let your dog and your grandson occupy the
>> same space? And, last but not least, where was your son in all this?
>> You got rid of *his* dog without any input from him, and then the both
>> of you allowed a baby near a dog with a known history of aggression.
>> At the risk of piling on, you didn't tell your school that you'd put
>> your dog down, you asked. Had it been me, that dog would have gone to
>> the nearest emergency vet and been put down last night. I can
>> understand maybe keeping your dog, but I can't understand your son's
>> just allowing you to get rid of his dog, and I don't understand either
>> of you allowing the baby in close proximity with your dog.
>> I don't understand where the papa bear instincts were on this, which
>> leads me to wonder if your school has ownership of your dog?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Barry
>> Vaughn via nagdu
>> Sent: Thursday, October 9, 2014 10:10 AM
>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: [nagdu] Worst day of my life
>>
>> Let me catch you up to spped on what has happened with my guide these
>> last few months. Back in April I started keeping my sons dog. At
>> first my guide and my sons dog got along great playing together and
>> such. Last month my guide started attacking the other dog.. So I got
>> rid of the other dog and everything settled down. Then last night the
>> most awful thing happened. My ten month old grandsong was crawling in
>> the living room and Jake attacked him biting him real bad in the face.
>> The bites missed the eye but he had two real bad wounds on the
>> forehead and jaw. I just talked to my school and they recommended
>> that I put him down. The county animal shelter is picking him up this
> morning for a ten day quarrentine.
>>
>> Please pray for me and my family.
>>
>> Barry and guide Jake
>>
>>
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