[nagdu] Some people aren't very bright ... :)

Nicole Torcolini ntorcolini at wavecable.com
Thu Oct 9 22:31:24 UTC 2014


Vivianna,

	I respect your opinion; however, part of expressing an opinion that
is for one thing and against another is acknowledging and understanding  the
part which you are against in its entirety and not just the negative
instances that did not work. You remind me of the media; for some subjects,
all that you talk about and focus on are the bad stuff. Are there instances
where food reward does not work? Yes, especially if the dog either is not
interested in food or gets so excited that the dog misses the point. Do I
use food reward? Yes. Do I use it all of the time? No. Does Lexia sometimes
look at me like "Okay, I should get a treat for that?". Yes. Do I give it to
her? Sometimes if it has been a hard day or she has done something really
well, but definitely not all of the time. Do I use other forms of rewards?
Yes, I often pat her on the head or have a little party. Can food rewards go
wrong? Yes. Like Raven said, schools sometimes do not teach people how to
start backing off of the rewards, so it can be a slippery slope. However,
just because a person does not know how to use a technique correctly does
not mean that that technique is ineffective. And, finally, yes, it might
sound silly to teach your dog not to go after food using food, but, for some
dogs, if a high enough reward can be found, it works.

Nicole and Lexia

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Raven Tolliver
via nagdu
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 7:25 AM
To: Vivianna; NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Some people aren't very bright ... :)

An aspect of clicker training, or positive reinforcement training is using
multiple reinforcers. Food is not the only reinforcer. It really depends on
the dog and the situation. Other rewards can be play, sniffing, digging,
marking, petting/scratching, or verbal praise, just to name a few. That list
is not exhaustive by any means. I think most of the schools that use food
rewards are (a) new to positive reinforcement training, and (b) believe that
food is the quickest, most convenient, and most effective reward. While it
is quick and convenient, it is not always practical. As others have
mentioned, food is highly distracting to some dogs to the point that it
hinders their work. Also, some schools might not teach or talk the handler
through phasing out the treats. This is something many people struggle with,
but it must be done. You don't want to eternally rely on food, or any reward
for that matter, to get a behavior, or a behavior well-performed. You want
to train the dog so that eventually, an occasional reward will be enough to
keep the behavior coming, even if the reward is not a primary reinforcer.
It is great to incorporate play as a reward with any behavior that you want
to improve with your dog. It's best to just know your own dog, and do what
works most effectively and communicates what you want. For some dogs, food
is more distracting, for others, play is highly distracting. It's important
to not adhere to the assembly-line training approach that some schools seem
to have.


On 10/9/14, Vivianna via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> I completely agree.
> it just does not make sense to try and train your dog to refuse food 
> by giving him food.
> i want my dog to work for praise.  and, she does.
> so many folks these days are all on the band wagon of food rewards.
> probably, in a couple years, there will be some other dog training fad.
> i'll never forget the story of a blind woman who ran out of treats for 
> her guide dog (GDB) in the mall of america.  that dog refused to work 
> for her without them.  and, that place is absolutely huge.
> for that reason, as well as the dog's complete fixation on food, that 
> dog was returned to the school.
> i am traditional training all the way.
> Vivianna
>
> On Oct 9, 2014, at 7:38 AM, debby phillips via nagdu 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Mark, I applaud you for not doing the "food fad thing".  Finding 
>> something else that is a motivator for our dogs is awesome! I think 
>> one reason we tend to use food as a reward is our own use of food or 
>> drink as a reward for ourselves.  (This is just my opinion).  But 
>> think about this.  We have a great day at work, get a raise, or 
>> whatever.  Often we go out to dinner to celebrate.  Or we have a bad 
>> day at work, and we head for the nearest vending machine for that 
>> candy bar.  Yes, food is quick, and effective, but I for one don't want
to encourage that food drive too much.  Thanks
>> for a good idea, Mark.    Peace,    Debby and NEENA who loves to play tug
>> and toss the KONG.
>>
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--
Raven
"if God didn't make it, don't eat it." - John B. Symes, D.V.M.
http://dogtorj.com

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