[nagdu] just when you think you've heard it all

Mon Oct 20 15:40:30 UTC 2014

I think what I'm trying to say is that guide dogs are experimental like some
technology is experimental. We still don't know the best ways to train them,
see all the discussions on old school methods v. positive reinforcement, v.
clicker along with how and when to use any of these methods. 
Access laws still aren't where they need to be, I'd argue that if guide dogs
were truly operational, access laws would be a nonissue. 
Guide dogs have been around for 80 years, and that isn't very long. Length
of time means nothing as to whether or not something should be considered
operational. I say that we're still in the test phase of guide dog
development. The schools say they work well so they've passed the factory
acceptance test. End users have mixed results. This is fine. 
Compare this with say indoor plumbing. We all have it, we all know how it
works. We all know when it works and what it should do. Indoor plumbing is
so common you can't buy or rent a building without it. Indoor plumbing is
operational. This wasn't the case 100 years ago. 
All technologies go through an experimental phase. 

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Shannon Dyer via
nagdu
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:25 PM
To: Buddy Brannan; NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] just when you think you've heard it all

The only way I can think of that would make guide dogs experimental would be
on an extremely personal level. Working my first dog was experimental for a
lot of reasons. Because my first dog worked well for me, I've gone on to
work other dogs. If I had been poorly matched, or, if I had decided that a
guide dog really wasn't for me, I would have retired her and gone back to
using my cane.

As far as dogs being "better" than canes, so much of that is a matter of
personal preference. I really don't like cane travel, have never liked it,
can't imagine liking it at any point in the future. so, for me, having a dog
is a better choice, but I recognize that what's best for me may not be best
for the next person.

I hope this makes some sense. It's getting late, and I'm tired.

Shannon and the Acelet
On Oct 19, 2014, at 7:40 PM, Buddy Brannan via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
wrote:

> "Better" is a matter of perspective. No one has ever said that a guide dog
is "better" for everyone. Anyone who has said such a thing in any
seriousness doesn't know what s/he is talking about. Clearly, guide dogs
aren't "better" for everyone, for a variety of reasons. They're certainly
not "better" for people who don't like dogs. They're not "better" at finding
the fourth sidewalk on the left past the mailbox, until they've been
patterned to that. They're not "better" in respect of maintenance, expense,
care, etc. These are all practical considerations. They may be the price
that some people are willing to pay for the benefits that they provide,
which makes them "better" for some. I think, however, that after 80+ years,
they can't really be considered "experimental" anymore though. 
> 
> -
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> Phone: 814-860-3194
> Mobile: 814-431-0962
> Email: buddy at brannan.name
> 
> 
> 
>> On Oct 19, 2014, at 4:33 PM, Star Gazer via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
wrote:
>> 
>> Debbie,
>> You could probably be describing me. Part of it is that we are 
>> promised dogs that will enhance our lives. They are billed to us as "way
better then cane"
>> and so I expected that. 
>> I think that if they were billed as "different" or even as "experimental"
>> I'd have done better. I know how to work with experimental stuff, 
>> both in the technology itself and how people relate to it. I know how 
>> to work with "different". But when I'm told again and again and again 
>> that this will be better then what I used before, well that's what I
expect.
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of debby 
>> phillips via nagdu
>> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2014 10:46 PM
>> To: Tracy Carcione; NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of 
>> Guide Dog Users; DLewis at clovernook.org; nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] just when you think you've heard it all
>> 
>> Hi Tracy, I think people have this fear that we take them to a 
>> shelter or something.  And I suppose, (God forbid) that there are 
>> people who do.  I have met a few people in my life who don't seem to 
>> have much feeling for their dogs.  It's a wonder that the dogs have 
>> worked for them.  There was one person I know and people told me that 
>> the dog deliberately walked him in to a telephone pole.  I don't know 
>> if that's true, but after having seen this person with their dog, I 
>> would say they deserved it if the dog really did deliberately do 
>> that.  And though I don't know if dogs can think that kind of 
>> thought, I did laugh secretly when they told me.  I don't normally hold
grudges and try not to think
>> unkindly of my fellow human beings, but, well, um, anyway.    
>> Debby and Neena
>> 
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