[nagdu] just when you think you've heard it all

Wed Oct 22 14:01:39 UTC 2014

The hypothesis is that guide dogs can be trained to help blind folks. That 
has been proven. What was once an experiment has been proven to be 
beneficial. Now, I can get that some programs are experimenting with better 
ways to improve how dog teams work. Yah, you can sort of compare dogs to 
tech. For example, we know that a car can take us some place. This is not 
hypothesis but fact. Folks are constantly improving on the car so that it 
can do this faster, quieter and with less mess. Dog teams are the same way. 
Except the improvements are being made in teaching behaviors that are useful 
for the tasks we want them to perform. The dog has been around longer than 
the car and is also a product of technology. In this case its genetic 
manipulation. But, the dog is still less understood because it lives and 
reacts to different conditions with different behaviors. Its proven that 
dogs can be helpful to humans but now, we have to study all of the 
conditions in which this helpfulness can be used.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Brett Sample via nagdu" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
To: "Star Gazer" <pickrellrebecca at gmail.com>; "NAGDU Mailing List, the 
National Association of Guide Dog Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 9:18 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] just when you think you've heard it all


>I am not sure you can compare a living breathing creature to technology or 
>plumbing? That is the very reason there will never be a perfect or exact 
>way to train them. Access issue are a human problem and have nothing to do 
>with the dog being operational. On the factory acceptance? what factory 
>would accept a 50% failure rate? Again, they are living breathing creatures 
>and mass production via an assembly line is not possible. When you conduct 
>an experiment it is to prove that a theory will work or not. Guide Dogs do 
>work so they are proven in that respect. Anything else after that is called 
>evolution. Like plumbing, we now have automatic faucets and with cell phone 
>or computer upgrades. In the end a Guide Dog is not and will never be the 
>answer for everyone. My hope is that people never give up trying to find 
>ways to make things better for all of us, no matter what it may be.
>
> Thats my take on it,
>
> Brett and Ziva
>> On Oct 20, 2014, at 11:40 AM, Star Gazer via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> 
>> wrote:
>>
>> I think what I'm trying to say is that guide dogs are experimental like 
>> some
>> technology is experimental. We still don't know the best ways to train 
>> them,
>> see all the discussions on old school methods v. positive reinforcement, 
>> v.
>> clicker along with how and when to use any of these methods.
>> Access laws still aren't where they need to be, I'd argue that if guide 
>> dogs
>> were truly operational, access laws would be a nonissue.
>> Guide dogs have been around for 80 years, and that isn't very long. 
>> Length
>> of time means nothing as to whether or not something should be considered
>> operational. I say that we're still in the test phase of guide dog
>> development. The schools say they work well so they've passed the factory
>> acceptance test. End users have mixed results. This is fine.
>> Compare this with say indoor plumbing. We all have it, we all know how it
>> works. We all know when it works and what it should do. Indoor plumbing 
>> is
>> so common you can't buy or rent a building without it. Indoor plumbing is
>> operational. This wasn't the case 100 years ago.
>> All technologies go through an experimental phase.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Shannon Dyer 
>> via
>> nagdu
>> Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:25 PM
>> To: Buddy Brannan; NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide 
>> Dog
>> Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] just when you think you've heard it all
>>
>> The only way I can think of that would make guide dogs experimental would 
>> be
>> on an extremely personal level. Working my first dog was experimental for 
>> a
>> lot of reasons. Because my first dog worked well for me, I've gone on to
>> work other dogs. If I had been poorly matched, or, if I had decided that 
>> a
>> guide dog really wasn't for me, I would have retired her and gone back to
>> using my cane.
>>
>> As far as dogs being "better" than canes, so much of that is a matter of
>> personal preference. I really don't like cane travel, have never liked 
>> it,
>> can't imagine liking it at any point in the future. so, for me, having a 
>> dog
>> is a better choice, but I recognize that what's best for me may not be 
>> best
>> for the next person.
>>
>> I hope this makes some sense. It's getting late, and I'm tired.
>>
>> Shannon and the Acelet
>> On Oct 19, 2014, at 7:40 PM, Buddy Brannan via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> "Better" is a matter of perspective. No one has ever said that a guide 
>>> dog
>> is "better" for everyone. Anyone who has said such a thing in any
>> seriousness doesn't know what s/he is talking about. Clearly, guide dogs
>> aren't "better" for everyone, for a variety of reasons. They're certainly
>> not "better" for people who don't like dogs. They're not "better" at 
>> finding
>> the fourth sidewalk on the left past the mailbox, until they've been
>> patterned to that. They're not "better" in respect of maintenance, 
>> expense,
>> care, etc. These are all practical considerations. They may be the price
>> that some people are willing to pay for the benefits that they provide,
>> which makes them "better" for some. I think, however, that after 80+ 
>> years,
>> they can't really be considered "experimental" anymore though.
>>>
>>> -
>>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>>> Phone: 814-860-3194
>>> Mobile: 814-431-0962
>>> Email: buddy at brannan.name
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Oct 19, 2014, at 4:33 PM, Star Gazer via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Debbie,
>>>> You could probably be describing me. Part of it is that we are
>>>> promised dogs that will enhance our lives. They are billed to us as 
>>>> "way
>> better then cane"
>>>> and so I expected that.
>>>> I think that if they were billed as "different" or even as 
>>>> "experimental"
>>>> I'd have done better. I know how to work with experimental stuff,
>>>> both in the technology itself and how people relate to it. I know how
>>>> to work with "different". But when I'm told again and again and again
>>>> that this will be better then what I used before, well that's what I
>> expect.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of debby
>>>> phillips via nagdu
>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2014 10:46 PM
>>>> To: Tracy Carcione; NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of
>>>> Guide Dog Users; DLewis at clovernook.org; nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] just when you think you've heard it all
>>>>
>>>> Hi Tracy, I think people have this fear that we take them to a
>>>> shelter or something.  And I suppose, (God forbid) that there are
>>>> people who do.  I have met a few people in my life who don't seem to
>>>> have much feeling for their dogs.  It's a wonder that the dogs have
>>>> worked for them.  There was one person I know and people told me that
>>>> the dog deliberately walked him in to a telephone pole.  I don't know
>>>> if that's true, but after having seen this person with their dog, I
>>>> would say they deserved it if the dog really did deliberately do
>>>> that.  And though I don't know if dogs can think that kind of
>>>> thought, I did laugh secretly when they told me.  I don't normally hold
>> grudges and try not to think
>>>> unkindly of my fellow human beings, but, well, um, anyway.
>>>> Debby and Neena
>>>>
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>>>
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