[nagdu] discrimination for service pups in training./my little rant

[Valerie Gibson]

Hi,

I've never worked with goldens, but from what i've seen from family  members who've had them, they are very trainable. so you should have no problem there save for the typical puppy behavior.

What I would seriously encourage you to do is read up on puppy behavior and your breed.  I'm sure bookshare offers some books on caring for goldens, and I'd recommend books on clicker training.  

It's great you have a trainer coming, but a little extra homework on your part couldn't hurt, and this way, you'll know what to expect as your pups grow.  

I highly doubt you'll be doing any guide work right now.  What you're going to focus on is socialization and basic puppy obedience.  This isn't, as some trainers would call it, specialized training, so it will be easy to find books on obediance training.  Given that there are so many training methods, do some research to find a philosophy that you agree with. I won't say that one philosophy is right or wrong.  I'm more of a trainer who mantains a balance between posative training and correction.  but I know some trainers who will never, ever, use correction.  It's all a matter of what the trainer and you believe.

Understand too that two different dogs may need to be trained two different ways.  
If it helps, you can think of your puppies as children in kindergarden.  I don't like humanizing dogs like this, but sometimes it helps to see where puppise are in their learning.  

One thing you also might want to do is use the training tools you're given by your trainer as a way for your puppies to work.  

For example,  "sit" might be one of the first things you learn.  When your trainer has taught you to teach your dog to sit, have your puppies sit before meals, or sit in order to receive affection.  This way, you're training them all through out the day, and they are constantly learning.  You're also telling your puppies that you're in charge of their food, their leasure activities and any affection they will receive and they must work for it.  This is a language your puppies understand.  In the dog world, nothing is free.  With your puppies seeing you as their provider for everything, they will aim to please you.  When you start serious training, your puppies will know that there are things you expect of them, and there are things they expect of you as well.  They expect love, guidance and protection in return for obediance.

One last thing I want to try to hammer home is that you need to be consistant in everything.  If it's not okay for puppy to get on the sofa, don't allow it ever.  If it's only okay for puppy to get on sofa when invited, don't ever allow puppy to jump  the furniture unless you've called him/her.  If this means you have to stop what you're doing to issue a distraction, do so.  I say "distraction" because I do not believe in correctional methods until I'm 100% sure a puppy know a command.

Zion's not allowed in my room unless I invite him in.  Dispite what some people think, dogs do understand conditions.  SOme people think that dogs either think it's okay to jump on sofas or not, that you should teach them one or the other, but if a dog understands that this sofa is mine, this room is mine, this bed is mine, etc, he's less apt to try to take over.  

Sometimes, I've had to stop what i'm doing and move Zion out of my room when he opens my bedroom door and goes in without my permission.  If it means that i have to steer him away from my room 5 times in a row so he gets the point, that's what I do.  I don't think you'll have to worry about this because i imagine your puppies are very young, and I highly advise you to not let them have the run of your house, ntil they prove polite in the space given to them now.

My point is be consistant in training.  know what you expect from the, and don't put up with anything less, no matter how cute it is at the time.  

I know this sounds like you're being a hard a**, but dogs please those they respect, and dogs, not only need, but want a leader who will offer them such structure.  

I'll give one example of something i'm working with Zion on right now. When he's in his kennel, and he starts wining, and i know he doesn't have to go out, or if he's in his kennel and I just got home and he's barking and carrying on, he's ignored completely, almost to the point of shunned.  I don't talk to him. I make sure when I have to go near him, I don't look in his direction.  He gets nothing from me. 
Some could argue, "but he's excited to see you", and that's true, but howling and barking is not polite in my pack so it's not something i tolerate.  
When Zion is settles down or has given up on my attention, then I will let him out.  

Again, I doubt this is something you ned to worry about rightnow, but those are just a few of my puppy tips.

Again, please please please please, and did I say, Please, read up on goldens and doggie life stages.  

Hope this helps, and again, I didn't want to make you feel like an idiot earlier.  I just come on a little strongwhen i feel passionately about something. :)


On Sep 8, 2014, at 4:44 PM, Jessica Roberts <kittycatforever0214 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Oh yeah, the training thing we have a lady who will come once a week
> for an hour to work with us 1 on 2 since we have 2 pups and will
> probably do a half hour with each.
> I htink we're going to start with walks at a outside mall near here,
> to our mailbox which is a nice walk away, up to the apartment office,
> to the daycare which is where my son goes, stuff like that. Eventually
> we'll build up to petco, church, and school.
> They seem like very adaptable puppies, and so I think it'll go well.
> I've never raised pups before, so forgive me if my first message came
> across as looking like an idiot.
> My thinking was merely to expose to them to as much as I could, but I
> see now it has to be done over time.
> So we'll do stuff with the trainer, go to my moms house, Derek's
> family, both of those houses have friendly dogs. And then once we've
> got all our shots, we'll go more places.
> Its hard to believe that these 12 pound fur balls will turn into 70
> pound full grown golden retrievers, haha.
> My college has said they are fine with them coming on campus once they
> are house broken. I'm crate training and I've read that should happen
> around 16 weeks to 5 months, we're at 10 weeks now and they are doing
> really well so far.
> Jessica
> 
> On 9/8/14, Valerie Gibson via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> I'm so glad you've made arrangements for your puppy. :)
>> 
>> I think it really depends on the dog.  As you work with the dog, oyu'll know
>> the dog better, and you'll know when the dog will be able to be taken to
>> class.
>> Take it one step at a time.  Get the pup out and about when you have fre
>> time, and socialize the puppy to other friendly people and friendly dogs.
>> Get the dog in basic obediance classes or work one on one with a trainer if
>> you don't know how to tain yourself.  I like puppy classes during the early
>> stages because it does get the dogs used to strange people, dogs, sights,
>> smells, etc.  I am opposed to group puppy training classes where your puppy
>> is made to work for an hour on commands.  To me, it's too long of a training
>> session, and I'd prefer to set my puppy up for success when first training
>> him on something...this isnt' easy to do when you've got a bunch of other
>> puppies around.  But, to each his own.
>> 
>> Get your puppy used to you, and most importantly, what you expect of
>> him/her.  This is important.
>> 
>> For Zion, I accomplished this by keeping him in his kennel when we weren't
>> training or playing. Gradually he got to spend more and more time outside of
>> the kennel, but as he gained more privledges inside the home, he gained more
>> structure outside of the home.  Whereas once people could pet him pretty
>> much all of the time, now I decided when he could be petted, and I used what
>> obedience commands he'd learned as stipulation for pets.
>> 
>> Once he is well mannered around strangers, then you can start thinking of
>> more structured places to take him.
>> 
>> Hope this helps. :)
>> 
>> 
>> On Sep 8, 2014, at 4:25 PM, Jessica Roberts <kittycatforever0214 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> I had actually looked into everything before we got the pups, but then
>>> this lady came out at me today. I had asked her before and it was
>>> okay.
>>> I've made arrangements for someoen to come let pups out the 2 days a
>>> week we're gone longer than they can hold there bladders for now.
>>> What age do you guys think is appropriate to take them to the college
>>> say, for an hour and a half class or so?
>>> Its not a showing off thing at all, but that I want to do this right
>>> and I want to expose the pups to as much as I can.
>>> Jessica
>>> 
>>> On 9/8/14, Valerie Gibson via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>> 
>>>> I'm in agreement here.  While I do believe there are some places your
>>>> puppy
>>>> should go to get acustomed to the world, most of those places are
>>>> outside.
>>>> For example, I took Zion onto the train when he was around 10 weeks.
>>>> owever
>>>> we never went on the train if  he showed any signs of fear.  Sometimes,
>>>> we'd
>>>> just sit near the train, and he would watch people getting on and off of
>>>> the
>>>> train.  We went into places like walmart together as well when he was a
>>>> young pup.  However I always made sure that the trips were short enough
>>>> to
>>>> provide a potty break before and after.  Because he was still very young,
>>>> I
>>>> was always willing to just allow him to sleep in his kennel while i went
>>>> out
>>>> to run around.
>>>> 
>>>> If your dog is not potty trained, I'm assuming it's around 3 months.
>>>> It's
>>>> good that you're thinking about socialization, but taking the pup to a
>>>> school is too much.  Zion goes to school with me now, and there are
>>>> times
>>>> when he gets restless.  That is due to the fact that he's ten months old
>>>> and
>>>> still a puppy, but slowly, he's getting better at calming down.  Another
>>>> thing you want to consider is that if you take the dog to a college
>>>> campus,
>>>> everyone's going to want to pet the dog.  This is good for the puppy, but
>>>> he
>>>> might come to associate the college campus with play and free pets.  I
>>>> recommend taking him to campus on a day where you don't have class and
>>>> can
>>>> stroll aroud. It's what I did when Zion was four months.
>>>> I don't mean to sound harsh, but it seems to me that you just want to
>>>> show
>>>> off your new puppy. Him/her being a service dog in training offers you
>>>> the
>>>> perk of being able to take it around to places.
>>>> 
>>>> There's nothing wrong with wanting to do this, but there's a time and
>>>> place
>>>> to do it right now.  On a time where you don't necessarily get free time
>>>> is
>>>> not one.
>>>> 
>>>> Truly I understand your eagerness to show off your friend.  There were
>>>> times
>>>> I had to remind myself that Zion was still X months old and wasn't ready
>>>> for
>>>> something.  It didn't help that he was so big.
>>>> 
>>>> My second pet peeve about this is: Why are you training a dog if you
>>>> don't
>>>> have the time?  Or, why not clear it with your disability center before
>>>> you
>>>> got puppy, that way you'd know, okay, it may not be able to come with me
>>>> to
>>>> class so I need to plan my class schedule around it's schedule, or make
>>>> arangements for it's care while I am away?
>>>> 
>>>> You don't need to answer these on list or even in an email to me.  Part
>>>> of
>>>> this is just my venting.
>>>> 
>>>> I get that everyone has their own circumstances, but the dog didn't ask
>>>> to
>>>> be placed in your life, especially if it's a puppy you're owner
>>>> training.
>>>> 
>>>> okay, now this is just my venting, not to/about anyone in particular.
>>>> 
>>>> This goes for pets too. If you can't take care of your dog, at any time,
>>>> for
>>>> any reason, make arrangements for it's care, wether that's for a dog
>>>> walker
>>>> to come by, taking it to a daycare, leaving it with a friend, etc.  If
>>>> you
>>>> can't do that, or can't afford it, you don't need to be training a dog.
>>>> 
>>>> If something comes up, after you've got the puppy, and it's nothing that
>>>> you
>>>> could have prevented before you got the puppy, that's a little
>>>> different.
>>>> 
>>>> As a dog trainer you need to understand life stages of dogs, what
>>>> hurtles
>>>> you'll need to jump at what stage, and various ways to overcome those
>>>> hurtles.  For example, if your dog is chewing everything in sight and
>>>> it's 5
>>>> months old, you should know that it's teeth, and this shall last roughly
>>>> until the dogs 7 months old.  If your dog, who once was an obedient
>>>> puppy,
>>>> suddenly decides it's not going to listen to anything yo say, and it's a
>>>> year old, that'a adolescence and understand that you might have to start
>>>> back at square one, but that this too shall pass.  You should understand
>>>> breed in that not all dogs train or work the same.  What was your dog
>>>> originally bred for?  How can you use this in your training?  Akitas
>>>> were
>>>> bred for hunting, so when we come across obstacles that Zion must walk
>>>> around, it's better for him and me, if i allow him to find a way around
>>>> it
>>>> on his own.
>>>> 
>>>> In order to train service dogs properly, in my oppinion, you need to
>>>> understand basic dog behavior.  I'd even go so far as to say, in order
>>>> to
>>>> work with a service dog, you need to understand dog behavior, but I
>>>> don't
>>>> want to start a holy war over it lol
>>>> 
>>>> I can't tell you the people i've run into who think that just because
>>>> their
>>>> dog is a guide dog it shouldn't have the same bad habbits a pet dog
>>>> might
>>>> have.
>>>> 
>>>> Maybe i'm just preaching to the choir as it were, and I don't mean to
>>>> make
>>>> it sound as if the owner/trainers on here just don't have common sense,
>>>> because I'm sure that those of you who've worked (not just owned) but
>>>> worked
>>>> with many dogs know this.
>>>> 
>>>> I just get baffled at people (and I don't just mean those on this list)
>>>> who
>>>> want to train a dog for any ort of service work and know hardly anything
>>>> about your general dog behavior.  It's like they see service dog
>>>> training
>>>> and regular obedience training as separate, and they're not. they all
>>>> build
>>>> on one another.  Then there's your typical person who wants to train a
>>>> "service dog" just so their pet can go into places with them.
>>>> 
>>>> Okay, i'm done with my ranting.
>>>> 
>>>> Understand that i'm not pointing anyone out here.  I just want those who
>>>> are
>>>> starting out on owner training to understand that there's more to it, but
>>>> i
>>>> don't think anyone can really understand that until they've worked with
>>>> dogs.
>>>> 
>>>> Zion is my first service dog that i've trained, but I've trained other
>>>> dogs.
>>>> In fact, by the end of next year I hope to have a certificate by the
>>>> certification counsel of professional dog trainers, which will certify me
>>>> in
>>>> dog training.
>>>> 
>>>> PS: sorry if I came across as a bit blunt or whatever. sugar coating
>>>> things
>>>> has never been my strong point, so I can come across as more bitchy than
>>>> i
>>>> intend. :)
>>>> 
>>>> On Sep 8, 2014, at 1:59 PM, The Pawpower Pack via nagdu
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> I'm not familiar with the Florida law, but if Florida gives trainers
>>>>> with
>>>>> pups the same rights and responsibilities as trained dogs, then the ADA
>>>>> says that handlers of service dogs can be asked to remove the dog if it
>>>>> is
>>>>> not toilet trained and or if it is causing a disturbance, like whining
>>>>> or
>>>>> barking.
>>>>> As a trainer, I do not take dogs into places inside until the dog has
>>>>> proven, over a period of weeks, that it is toilet trained.  Also that
>>>>> it
>>>>> can be quiet for long periods of time.  I do this by accessing many dog
>>>>> friendly outdoor spaces.
>>>>> I also do not think that a puppy is ready for a whole day at school.
>>>>> This
>>>>> is a very young dog, it's only job right now is to be a young dog and
>>>>> explore the world.
>>>>> I wish you the best.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Rox and the kitchen Bitches:
>>>>> Mill'E, Laveau, Soleil
>>>>> Pawpower4me at gmail.com
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Sep 8, 2014, at 1:50 PM, Jessica Roberts via nagdu
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>> I sent an email today to the director of the office for students with
>>>>>> disabilities for one of the campuses for which I'm attending next
>>>>>> week.
>>>>>> I obviously want to take my puppy with me because of the exposure to
>>>>>> things, and because its a long time to leave a puppy alone.
>>>>>> I got an email back saying that I could not bring the puppy until its
>>>>>> house broken, because they don't want it having accidents, whining, or
>>>>>> disrupting classes.
>>>>>> My plan was to have puppy in a wheeled carrier for a few weeks anyway
>>>>>> because of house breaking stuff, and also because puppy has not had
>>>>>> all her shots so she'd be safe, too.
>>>>>> She then informed me she'd let her boss contact the colleges lawyer to
>>>>>> get educated about service dogs in training.
>>>>>> Florida Statute 413.08 states that service dogs in training have the
>>>>>> same rights as fully trained guide dogs. Am I right to push this or
>>>>>> should I leave puppy home crated until they think its appropriate?
>>>>>> I don't wanna do the second because of all the socialization things
>>>>>> that'd be missed.
>>>>>> The puppy is fine in a crate and I'm sure will be fine in the carrier
>>>>>> too, the plan was to put her in there with a puppy nylabone, and to
>>>>>> take her out for cuddle and potty time between classes and such.
>>>>>> Thoughts, suggestions, help would be greatly appreciated.
>>>>>> Jessica
>>>>>> 
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